To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

not confused then - abortion is okay but only in circumstances you find acceptable but wont say what they are

seriously either it is a life or it isn't regardless of it's genesis, future ability, effect on the mother or viability

Pro-life doesn't sound positive at all - it sounds (accurately) like a piece of propaganda used to cast everyone who disagrees with you as being "anti-life".

It's the most transparent moral posturing imaginable.

I disagree with people who oppose abortion rights for women, but I accept that it is ethically complicated.

I utterly revile anyone who calls themselves a pro-lifer.

In my experience they are immoral crusaders who will employ any tactic, no matter how base, to secure their aim of turning women of childbearing age into legally inferior incubators.

"You can't have late term abortions for the simple reason it would be murder. A person that is capable of breathing independently of its birth mother is entitled to life irrespective of whether or not it is disabled, or two headed"

But Fabby you can have late term abortions if the baby is severely disabled

But abortion = death. That is just a fact. So saying your a pro life just means you support the right ps of the baby to actually have a life!

See you 'revilve' people for what they think. You keep saying how negative we are but we have not been the ones essentially calling the other side mysogonistsic morons!

Oops a stray extra V in there [embarrassed]

I don't - You believe it is a baby from day one - I do not - I will not force you to have an abortion - please don;t stop me being able to - job done :)

Yes, gordy, but those who believe that it is a life are left with an ethical dilemma weighing the benefits and costs to the two lives involved in the question. Like a 'who do you save in a fire?' type dilemma you could face if you were talking about two individuals that you believe to be equal in value.

So things like degree of harm to each person involved, impact on quality of life for each, woman's ability to cope with the pregnancy emotionally (which is where the means of conception might be relevant), foetus' ability to feel pain, etc. etc. are all going to come into the question, and differing circumstances may lead to differing conculsions as to whether abortion is the best of a bad lot of options in any particular case.

It's not a confused point of view, it's one that recognises the complexities of the dilemma and doesn't try to pretend that there aren't any.

Ahh! not having a good few minutes!

I thought late term abortions meant up to 28 weeks.

AThing - abortion is allowed in Ireland/NI if the life of the woman is in danger.

Women's rights are curtailed at 24 weeks in accordance with the current law and most people are quite happy with that.

gordy, where are you getting this 30 week figure from? Foetuses are compatible with life much earlier than that. Earlier than the 24 week limit as well which is why IMO the limit should be lowered.

Pro life, pro choice, both equally emotive and one sided descriptions of abortion.

For those of you who favour the right of abortion until birth, how would you feel if your 18 year old child decided to exercise their bodily autonomy and paid a doctor to end their life with a lethal injection as they decided (for whatever reason) that their life was no longer worth living? Would you applaud that doctor and tell him that he was assisting the right of your child to the ultimate bodily autonomy?

Fabby - up to 24 weeks is the current law - abortions are allowed to term for disabilities but some of those disabilities are not necessarily incompatible with life so it really does seem discriminatory and pretty much like eugenics :(

I think being able to have an abortion until birth is pretty sick to be honest.

I agree Fabby.

gordylovesheep
I think you are right about men generally fronting these groups. We have a truly horrible local group called Abort 67, which describes itself as a 'public education project' and is fronted by a so-called Christian, Andy Stephenson, who has taken it upon himself to dictate 'educate' us about what we should be doing with our bodies. I find his views utterly repugnant and strangely un-Christian. The church he belongs to preaches an anti-abortion message to its congregation which makes me feel very sad, as by the law of averages some members of that (pretty big) church have probably had abortions and are being made to feel like shameful shit.

link to news story about this abhorrent group

What sort of church preaches about this from the pulpit? How can they call themselves Christian and have such disregard for women?

Abortion up until BIRTH is legal in this country in certain circumstances.

Larrygrylls: Well I would accept that my 18 year old child had the right of autonomy over his/her own body and could choose to end his/her life. Because I think everyone has that right.

Once again, anti-choicers: Do you feel that women who are pregnant as the result of rape should be allowed to terminate their pregnancies? If so, why is the foetus that you worship only worth fighting for if the woman might have enjoyed the incident of PIV that created it.
Go on, why is a foetus produced by rape OK to terminate when a foetus produced by contraceptive failure is not OK to terminate?

SGB, someone earlier answered that and said it was to do with the fact that the woman did not have a choice when she was raped - it wasn't anything to do with a woman enjoying sex. Personally, I don't think that the circumstances of conception make a foetus any less alive so I can't really explain that argument. Perhaps someone else will be along who can.

no at 24 week (25/26/27 3etc) it is not viable - it wont live magically all by it's self

by 'viable' you mean requiring massive amounts of painful intervention which is NOT the same as viable

Viable to me means' able to survive outside the womb' - which a 24 weeker can not

oh and exactly Tragic

people don;t grasp that it is black and white - the rest is people making moral judgements on the WOMAN ... it's okay if she didn't want sex for example

But gordy cant the same be said of a severely disabled baby AFTER birth (arguably no baby can live "magically all by itself" but lets go with your "painful" intervention argument for a minute). Do you think it is ok to terminate them too?

Larry you are asking people to compare cheese to jets fighters - they are not the same thing - but if that was a LEGAL option made by a fully aware adult making an informed choice I would not like it but I would have to accept it as their choice not mine

however it never will become law so it's a silly argument isnt it

Ahhhhh Doctors make those decision all the time - weighing up quality of life with intervention - yes sometimes it is better to offer paliative care

NB you can't 'terminate' a born baby - that is murder under law - in utro it is termination and legal - there is a difference

gordy, so all those babies born prematurely are not actually 'alive' then? If you don't think they should be referred to as babies at that age what do you think they should be called?