To object to dd cleaning toilets?

[BarryStar]

I don't how best to handle this, so am seeking viewpoints!

DD (17) has a cleaning job at her school for two hours every day. Most of the cleaners are pupils although there are some adult cleaning staff, including a supervisor. There is a rota drawn up of who cleans what area. However, whereas most people have been assigned areas they clean regularly, dd finds out every day where she is to clean.

Initially she was told that she would have her own room to clean once she had been doing the job for a few weeks. She's been there since October now, and still has no regular room. Quite often (at least twice a week) the supervisor tells her to go and clean the toilets - not a particular set of toilets, but any set he tells her to go to. This is despite the fact that her name is not on the rota against the toilets. The toilets are supposed to be cleaned by the adult "proper" cleaning staff.

She has pointed this out a couple of times, and has been told that, when a regular room becomes available, she will be assigned one of those. This hasn't happened.

Ok - I really really don't want her cleaning these loos. The stories she tells me of the state they are often in makes me feel ill. I won't revolt you all before lunch with the details but let your imaginations run riot!

It's not a case of me thinking cleaning toilets is beneath her, although personally I would never expect anyone to clean one after me. However, I do think she is being taken advantage of, and I also think that she should be given proper equipment (eg, overalls, gloves, clean loo brushes etc).

She doesn't like doing it, but does do it because of the money. I have told her what I think but haven't made an issue of it. But the things she tells me are so disgusting and I just don't think she should have to deal with it. So if I insist she gives up the job, am I giving her the wrong message (ie, making her think she is "too good" for this sort of work), or am I allowing my dd to be taken for a ride! As I said earlier, she has tried to tackle the issue with the supervisor, but hasn't got anywhere.

So WWYD?

I think she's being taken advantage of. Sounds like the supervisor thinks "I'm not doing those friggin toilets, I'll give them to this pupil who hasn't been assigned a room and doesn't argue". She should tell them that either they give her a regular (non-pooey) room to clean like the other students, or they start paying her the same as the 'proper' cleaners with rights to sick pay, etc. It's not about not wanting to clean loo's, it's about not sticking to a contract that both parties have agreed to.

Do we have to turn every thread into a spot of tory-bashing? Are you seriously telling me that the likes of Millband, Brown and Blair didn't have similarly priviledged backgrounds to those of the Tory leadership?

I agree that this job is a good "grounding" experience and think the OP should be encouraging and praising her daughter for her initiative and hard work, rather than teling her (explicitly or implicitly) that such work is beneath her.

God I cant stand all of this "its not in the contract" crap.

I get asked to nip to the shops to get tea bags for the office from time to time - its not in my contract

Ive been asked to train people up on the systems - this isnt in my contract

I sometimes get asked to cover reception - this isnt in my contract

My manager asks if I'll grab him a sandwich when Im on my way to get mine - not in my contract

Etc etc

Why do I do it? Because the requests arent dangerous, illegal, out of my depth, or beneath me, and I am paid regardless. IME people who bang on about "its not in my contract" are the ones who are nudged towards the door slowly but surely.

I'd think I suggest she talks to someone higher than the supervisor and ask why she being repeatedly assigned jobs her contract says she is not supposed to do and possibly have a copy of her contract with her. Also ask about the promise of a assigned room is it ever likely to happen.

My first graduate job at aged 21 I took a longer waged job as it was supposed to come with on-going training. Project I got assigned to had a sexist git in charge of training and blocked my training for ages, my immediate supervisor had no interest in helping me. Took me ages to stand up for myself and find some the correct person above git to authorize it.

Think of it as encouraging her to stand up for herself and teaching her the persistence you sometimes need to have rather than teaching her she is to good for some jobs.

Gribble I've regularly done things not in my contract - including working a shit load of overtime. Come review time my employers would often try and over look this and other areas where i had gone beyond basics.

Good hard work isn't always noticed - and sometime making a bit of noise can get you where you should be.

In this case the OP is saying it is specifically excluded in daughter contract as something her daughter is expected to do - which is very different to an inflexible attitude to additional duties.

Hmmm...she uses toilets, yas? So she is familiar with them, that it's disgusting sometimes, disgusting for other people as well as for her? 17 is more than old enough to clean loos. Should only other parents' darlings be given the nasty jobs? It's not even that bad!

Wouldn't bother me.

I cleaned toilets at brownie camp when I was 8 - it was part of being in the 'orderly' group that week.

She is 17 she is a cleaner this person is her supervisor im sure once she has risen up the ranks in her job the toilets will be somebody else job , She has to do what she is asked im afraid she could complain but i dont think they will take her seriously , sometimes they just have to get on with it , she is 17 leave her to sort it out herself if she isnt happy about it ,

YABU OP. I had my first job working in a pub at the age of 14 and i was expected to clean the toilets and also the deep fat fryer. bother were horrible jobs but someone had to do them.

Your dd is technically an adult so stand back and let her get on with it

both were not bother

You know waaay too much about your daughter's job.

Possibly she is being taken for a ride, but the point is its her job and any lessons she learns about drawing boundaries, not being exploited, and just that lessons she needs to learn.

when i was 17 i worked in macdonalds and we had to clean toilets.

YANBU to feel concerned

They are taking advantage of your DD.

It is in her contract that she should NOT clean toilets, other members of staff are paid to do that, and they are clearly not doing it.

I expect this bully of a supervisor, who is breaking the terms of employment will carry on like this forever, until someone pulls him up on it.

If I were you I would advise DD to talk to the supervisor and point out that in the contract it states she should not be cleaning the toilets and she would like to stick to her contract. If he still makes her, then as her parent I would step in.

Christ, there is uproar on MN because of the workfare programme and here is a SCHOOL GIRL being told to do something she ISN'T supposed to do and you are all approving of it and telling the mum she is too involved.

I wouldn't want my 17 year old being taken advantage of like this.
What is it teaching her if you do/say nothing OP? It's basically that you should keep quiet if your employer starts taking the piss and making you do things which are specificified as NOT ALLOWED in your contract.

And I should just add, my 18 year old has a saturday job in a shop, which includes an hour of cleaning at the end of the day. But it states in her contract that this is part of her job. So that is ok by me.

I don't think she knows 'too much' about her DD's job. My parents (especially my Dad) have always been very interested in what I do, and I'll often go to them for advice etc. They've each got 35+ years work experience, why would I not want to at least listen to their opinions?

Yes, we all do things that aren't in our contracts, but when something like "you will not clean toilets" is purposefully included I don't think it's unreasonable to complain when you're told to do it by a supervisor. It's nothing to do with her thinking it's beneath her.

Lots of good advice has been given. Your DD should take her contract and go speak to a manager. If she doesn't get anywhere, she should go to the headteacher. I think you should discuss with her what she is going to say - maybe write something down if it helps? But she should do it herself.

It is probably a rule because U18s are considered by law to have less hazard perception and cleaning toilets uses toxic chemicals. So the school has probably interpreted the law to mean U18s should not clean toilets. Very patronising to most 17 year olds, but the school or council is probably covering their back incase there is an accident and they get sued. (Schools get sued all the time...but that is another issue.)

And all those people who said they cleaned toilets while still at school - it would be illegal now, you cannot work past 7pm and can only do 'light work'.

And yes, the over 18s will almost certainly be paid more - because their minimum wage is considerably higher. The school almost certainly employs lots of pupils as they are very cheap. And someone is legally an adult at 18, not 17 or 16.

Sorry all, had to go out.

Ok, most people say IABU so I will go with that, because as I said, I didn't know if I was being a bit precious. I honestly don't think it's beneath her - as some of you have mentioned, it's good for her to know that life doesn't come free and easy. I too had a job in a B & B from age 13 cleaning rooms and loos etc but compared to the horror stories she tells me, my job sounded a lot easier.

But I just want to say that some of you are missing the point. I'm not objecting on the grounds of her age she was 17 earlier this wee for someone who asked. I only mentioned age so you'd realise she wasn't 10 or something) It's more to do with the "not in her contract" part of it, and the fact she gets told to do it by the supervisor whether her name is down for it or not. Also, I was bothered by the disgusting conditions she talks about, but, I have to say, I am a bit anal about shit (ha) (I am one of those public loo avoiders if at all possible) so perhaps I'm reacting a bit too much and overthinking that part of it! (I am amazed though at what goes on in school loos!)

Ilike the fact that she talks to me about her job. She talks to me about her life in general. We get on well - i don't think I interfere or dominate. I certainly don't tell her what to do . I just like to interact with her, but I see that in this instance, I'll not say too much.

Thanks again for all viewpoints.

My guess (and I stress guess) is that there is a risk assessment for this job (actually there has to be one under COSHH - assuming they are using chemical cleaners).

My guess is that one of the control measures in that risk assessment is that under 18s are not to handle the chemicals. If this is the case then the company will be responsible for a) implementing the control measures and B) justifying why they haven't adhered to them if there are any issues.

I would also very much expect protective equipment to be part of the control measures.

So actually comes down to the risk assessment more than the contract.

PeppyNephrine, if DD is aged 17 and the other cleaners are all adults, particularly if they're over 21, they may well be making significantly more than her. The NMW difference is £2.40 an hour, which adds up quickly enough. It's hardly unusual for under 18s not to get paid as much as older colleagues not doing the same job, although perhaps this employer is unusually generous. But for all the posts confidently stating that DD is now an adult, when it comes to pay the law certainly won't see it that way.

Well I wouldn't want anyone I knew, especially my child, cleaning public toilets without having a hep b vac.....

Barry I think you should go with your first instinct, which was to do something about your DD being taken advantage of.

And as for the majority on here thinking its ok for the OP's DD to clean toilets, when it clearly states in her contract that she isn't to clean toilets, I do hope you don't put up with this kind of rubbish from your own employers.

All the cleaners at our school are 6th formers, so all the toilets are cleaned by 16+year olds. They are provided with all the appropriate equipment. The Premises officer is free to direct their duties as he sees fit, and he swaps staff round.
She's 17, there are far worse jobs around. However, she can always quit if she wants to, there's bound to be a less delicate teenager ready to do the job.

I was just going to bring up the use of chemical cleaners, but someone has already done so.

Some of these cleaners are supposed to be used by over 18's. So are some duties.

Is she insured to clean the toilets, if she isn't supposed to?

I can remember when Youth Opportunity workers were being exploited by being assigned the worse jobs and then when minimum wage came in, it was decided that it was unfair for some jobs tobe done by those earning the least(under 18's).

There are lots of reasons why this shouldn't continue.

She is being exploited and if she needs your support, as most young people do, in the workplace, then there is nothing wrong with you giving it.

For those saying that you should not get involved, this is no different than when an employee is allowed to chose someone for support during dispute meetings with their employer.

I see what you're saying but i don't think it will do her any harm, as long as she is provided with gloves, etc. It will show her what sort of jobs some people do and perhaps spur her to do well with her education. My Mum used to get me clean the family bathroom when i was 12, including the toilet, whilst my brother chopped logs and did the rubbish. She is certainly old enough to clean a toilet if she is 17. She will have to do it one day when she is a Mum! Just a couple of weeks ago i covered for my Sister in her office cleaning job. She mentioned that i'd have to do the toilets, but she certainly didn't mention that there would be 10 toilets in a long line in the ladies and another 5 in the gents plus urinals!

YANBU. Follow your feelings. Its not in the contract, so why is she being told to do it. She is being taken advantage of by older women. Speak to the headmaster is my advice.

I really don't think this is about whether a 17yo should clean toilets.

This (imo) is about the fact that someone (irrespective of age) is being asked to do something which is specifically stated on contract that is not their responsibility. I agree that there is an element of lots of people having to work beyond their contract but in this case may/probably have health and safetly considerations.