Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3

Original poster

To think that midwives should not be punished when high risk women have a home birth which goes wrong

57 replies

ReallyTired · 21/02/2012 09:34

I am in favour of homebirth and my second child was born at home. For low risk women it can be the most sensible option. I have also had a consultant led birth because I had a flu during the the birth of ds. Being in labour with flu is a different experience to being healthy and being in labour. The body is having to work so much harder.

Giving birth when you are ill is high risk. I feel that Mrs Bird chose her homebirth and the risk that it entailed. It is not rocket science to know that childbirth when you are ill is risky. It is tragic that she lost her baby. In the UK a woman has the right to change her mind at any time during a homebirth.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-17094924

I think the midwife is dammed whatever happens as a woman has a right to a homebirth however stupid. I feel that high risk women who have a homebirth should sign a disclaimer. Ie. that they take financial and ethical responsibly if the birth goes wrong.

I feel concerned that punishing the midwife for the stillbirth will make community midwives reluctant to attend homebirths.

OP posts:

Benbird · 24/02/2012 00:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Quattrocento · 24/02/2012 00:47

Thank you for coming on the thread, Benbird, and I am very sorry for your loss.

justintimefortea · 24/02/2012 02:19

Has anyone sat down and explained this decision to you?

I mean really explained the implications of what this means to this midwife practicing again?
Because she won't from what I read. She has retired, is in ill health, she has a 3 year caution and such if she tries to apply for any job in midwifery she will be under supervised practice IF any trust would take her on, which they likely wont because she is in ill health and subject to sanctions.

Though I feel that is no comfort what so ever.

Has anyone offered you both support... unbiased, objective support?

Bliss are fantastic and they understand your anger, your desire for retribution and redress and for a sign that this can never happen again in away that others never will because they talk and support parents like yourselves every day.

That is not me saying do not pursue it but me saying I hope you have found a place, even if it is a tiny space at the moment, where you can be around people who understand your pain and anger.

I hope you get through this... thats is all I can imagine you can hope for at this moment.

My thoughts are very much with you and your family x

SaraBellumHertz · 24/02/2012 06:21

Ben I am very sorry for the loss of your daughter.

My second son was stillborn and I found SANDs to be a tremendous source if support, if you and your wife are not yet in contact with them I thoroughly recommend that you speak with them.

OP, YABVU. The MW was aware there were issues during the labour and she that info from the patient, how on eqrth can a person make an informed choice if not in possession of the facts?

I am an intelligent woman who has given birth to 4 DC, it wouldn't occur to me that my own high temperature was sufficiently serious to mean that I ought to be in hospital to give birth.

SoupDragon · 24/02/2012 07:16

No sign of the OP coming back?

SoupDragon · 24/02/2012 07:17

and Ben, I am so sorry for your loss. Having had a home birth I do realise just him much trust you have to put in the attending MW

Whatmeworry · 24/02/2012 08:01

I think if I were a midwife I would not accept doing high risk home births, it puts your career under a lot of risk, and for what?

SoupDragon · 24/02/2012 08:05

Except this case was, apparently, the MWs choice. As far as the mother was concerned it was not high risk.

EdithWeston · 24/02/2012 08:10

"I think if I were a midwife I would not accept doing high risk home births, it puts your career under a lot of risk, and for what?"

Can a midwife actually refuse, if directed so to do, given that in UK women have the right to a give birth at home and NHS is obliged to send a qualified person to attend to her?

Fraktal · 24/02/2012 08:10

Ben and Rachel I am so sorry for your loss

I think this decision in no way reflects the pain this MWs negligence caused, although as another poster pointed out shes ynlikely to work again so that is perhaps some small positive. I can only hope that other MWs will now be doubly vigilant when attending HBs.

OP consciously choosing a HB is entirely different to choosing one when not in position of all the facts.

Whatmeworry · 24/02/2012 08:20

Can a midwife actually refuse, if directed so to do, given that in UK women have the right to a give birth at home and NHS is obliged to send a qualified person to attend to her?

Iirc in the UK homebirth is advised for low risk births only. I can't believe any medical system would allow women a "right" to have high risk birth at home.

Sevenfold · 24/02/2012 08:27

yabu
I think midwives should be held accountable.
makes me angry to think the one that cocked up so badly at dd's birth, that dd ended up with severe cp , just gets to carry on.
no investigation held or anything.
and even though we have had a legal case going for over 10 years she is still just carrying on.

EdithWeston · 24/02/2012 08:28

It's a woman's legal right and has been since the founding of the NHS. I know that some managers like to give a different impression, but you cannot be "refused" a home birth and the NHS is obliged to send an attendant.

Or do you mean that a lowish number of home births means there is never a shortage of midwives available for them?

Fraktal · 24/02/2012 08:29

whatme I think any woman can request a MW but the MW can go and say 'I'm strongly advising you to go to hospital' (which crucially this MW never did).

Whatmeworry · 24/02/2012 08:33

Even if it's high risk? And you still have the right to sue a MW if anything goes wrong, despite getting advice not to have a home birth?

EdithWeston · 24/02/2012 08:38

Well I mentioned it only to question whether a midwife can refuse any categories of home birth - does anyone know?

If a woman were correctly advised of the risk and the attendant had acted to high professional standards throughout, there would be no grounds to sue.

That does not appear to be the findings relating to the sad case in OP.

lesley33 · 24/02/2012 08:47

I thought a midwife can not refuse to attend. Watched a programme about home births years ago where the midwife was saying this and she herself was shown attending a home birth where beforehand and at the beginning and during labour she was advising the mother to go to hospital. The mother refused and the midwife continued to help. Thankfully everything was fine.

But even in these cases if the midwife does what she is supposed to do and advises the mother to go to hospital, then the midwife would not be to blame. The situation described by the op is totally different as the midwife was clearly negligent.

lilbreeze · 24/02/2012 08:49

my sister was not allowed to use the midwife led unit due to previous section but would have been supported in a homebirth which she did seriously consider. this doesn't seem logical to me but this is the system...

a.midwife can't.be sued just because things have gone wrong if no mistakes have been made

Snakeonaplane · 24/02/2012 09:00

Ben very sorry for all you must be going through.

I have had a baby 2 months ago and in my area we have a specialist home birth team of 4 mw who attend high risk home births, even then I found them to have a very low threshold for transferring in, even if you're blood pressure is high, relatively normal in active labour, you have to sign a disclaimer to say you understand the risks.

Statistically home births are quite safe but that depends in the judgements of attending mw. I am certainly not defending the mw in question, she made some terrible mistakes but the range of normal in labour is very large and I suppose mw can't send everyone in so have to use their judgement ifyswim. In my last labour baby had some really big decelerations in the last hour of labour but was delivered without any problems.

I'm totally about the pethidine and giving it at home I was always told that if I required anything more than G&A then that was reason enough to go in as the hospital is the safest place for giving those drugs.

Whatmeworry · 24/02/2012 09:07

a.midwife can't.be sued just because things have gone wrong if no mistakes have been made

Nearly every emergency situation will create procedural gaps that a lawyer with 20/20 hindsight can exploit.

I suspect current practices were drawn up in less litigious times, be interesting to see if changes are made, right now it seems to me MW are on a limb.

minceorotherwise · 24/02/2012 09:09

Lilibreeze, well of course a mw shouldn't be sued if they made no mistake.
But who makes that call?
Are all deaths during/ shortly after labour or injury investigated thoroughly by an independent source? No. As far as I can see unless it is pushed by the parents it is left unquestioned.
How bizarre is that? How open to misuse? How liable to lax midwives?
This is a life we are talking about.
I cannot understand why there isn't more accountability.

minceorotherwise · 24/02/2012 09:11

And right now so are the parents whatworry - and we have far far more to lose than cash

Epps78 · 24/02/2012 09:18

Whether you have a home birth or a hospital birth is neither here nor there, the facts are as a midwife you are trained in both areas and at no stage can you be complacent or lax in your attitude when dealing with a woman and her unborn child!

As an experienced MW who dealt mostly with homebirths should have known better and done her job properly! Her attitude during labour towards Mr and Mrs Bird and in the ambulance to the hospital was an absolute disgrace!

I don't think it is any conciliation whether she works again to Mr and Mrs Bird they have lost a daughter and that is something they have to live with everyday!

They have been let twice and Mr Birds anger totally understandable.

SoupDragon · 24/02/2012 09:18

"Nearly every emergency situation will create procedural gaps that a lawyer with 20/20 hindsight can exploit. "

Not if the MW has given the parent(s) specific and clear warnings about the consequences of not following her recommendations wrt transferring to hospital.

lesley33 · 24/02/2012 09:20

I suspect in practice procedural gaps will be viewed very differently from clear negligence as it clearly was in this case

Flip

1 2 3

Swipe left for the next trending thread