to think the Greeks no longer live in a democracy

[WetAugust]

From Press coverage of the Eurozone crisis:

Dutch Finance Minister Jan Kees De Jager wants the EU and IMF to take "permanent" control of government decision-making on revenues and public expenditure in Greece: "I am in favour of a permanent troika in Athens".

Very sad that the cradle of democracy will in future be ruled by the EU and IMF.

It might not happen - but it's scary that a Dutch politician can even suggest it.

Greece is in dire trouble and is, to be honest, institutionally corrupt. Perhaps having someone from outside take things over for a while wouldn't be the worst thing.

My dance teacher works 2 weeks of every month in Athens and the stories she tells me about corruption are jaw dropping.

I agree OP.

Greece is now an economic colony of Germany and not many people have actually noticed this.

How corrupt they are is irrelevant. We don't go around taking over government decision making in all countries with a corruption problem do we?

You do if you're the EU.....

When you are broke with no alternative, you have to fall in with you bail out lender's wishes. When UK had to go to the IMF under Wilson, we were the ones who had to comply.

What they face puts into fresh perspective the austerity measures other governments in Europe are choosing to adopt to avoid this fate.

They do have an alternative Edith; they can default and revert to the drachma. All that is being suggested is that they exit the EZ not the EU. There is precedent for countries being in the EU but not the EZ, so what is the big deal with leaving the euro, devaluing and growing again?

So 'pour encourager les autres?'

My point regarding corruption (I'm not advocating what has been proposed, merely playing devil's advocate) is that if the people that have been running things into the ground for so long cannot be trusted, who do you turn to. Regardless of the "changes" in the Greek government, it is still essentially the same people calling the shots.

scary: yes that s indeed an option. The economic and social pain of the free fall that will follow is a magnitude greater than level of planned austerity, but it is just possible that any ensuing recovery (if there can be much of one in the short term, given the wider woes of Europe) may come about a bit sooner. But it's all a bit crystal ball.

When we're they ever?

Greece may be corrupt and broke. But the answer is not to suspend/terminate the democratic process.

The democratic option would be to cut them free of the Eurozone and give them the opportunity to elect politicians that will tackle corruption.

Iceland and Argentina both defaulted in the past - Iceland very recently, yet it has just been upgarded, so a default has been a better option for them than having another 'body' run their affairs.

Being denied your democratic rights will just make the population even less likely to comply with the diktats of a 'governmentt' they didn't elect and can't remove.

I thought the whole point of our involvement in Iraq, Libya and Afghanisatn was to promote and nuture 'democrarcy'.

Seems a bit strange to remain a member of a club - the EU - that is denying democarcy to one of its own members.

Greece is being held to ransom by threats of what would happen if they were to default. Scare tactics to make sure they comply and keep the Euro project going for the benefit of Germany and France and their banks. Why did the Eurocrats turn a blind eye to the Greeks tax avoidance and over spending all these years? They let them join the Euro with full knowledge that this was going on and now stand there tutting and punishing the ordinary people in order to save themselves. Iceland has survived - perhaps Greece can too?

but Greece IS going to default - that's a given from what I understand.

what I really don't understand is throwing all these billions at them to prevent something even most politicians acknowledge cannot now be avoided.

I think technically Greece is still a democracy, however, it looks as though the political class is so at odds with the electorate as to have made itself illegitimate. The politicians are 'representatives' of the people who are now no longer representing anything other than themselves (under the pressure of external influence).

what I really don't understand is throwing all these billions at them to prevent something even most politicians acknowledge cannot now be avoided

They are just kicking the can down the road.

Noone wants to be the one who states that Greece has to leave.

So they try to impose ludricrously austere terms in the hope that Grece can't meet them and has to leave.

But the Greek politicians - led by a Prime Minister who is a former EU 'technocrat' rather than a democratically elected politician, say they can meet the terms.

So the EU/IMF then try abother tack - they want all prospective winners of the next Greek election to sign that they will implement the cuts - and all do except for the Communists.

So that doesn't force Greece out either. So now they propose something that should be utterly unacceptable permanent governance by this Troika.

Will be interesting to see if this is the step too far that finally forces Greece out - which is what the Germans actually want but are too cowardly to say so. Hence the call that has come from the Dutch politician.

Utterly outrageous that the UK is still a member of this disgusting club.

As Scaryteacher says, Greece needs to bail out of the Euro, revert to the Drachma & devalue, anything else would have (& already is) fucking appalling consequences for the people of Greece.

And people may talk about corruption but do they seriously think this wasn't known to the people that cobbled together the Euro in the first place? I lived in The Republic of Ireland for five years dealing with bureaucracy & they were corrupt (to a lesser extent) it didn't take a genius to see it.

As wetaugust says - it currently is a disgusting club that would rather see the people of a country disintegrate & starve then admit their fucking project is a disaster.

James Goldsmith (Referendum Party) called the EU 'a trap' that the people of Eurpoe were sleep-walking into.

Well the trap has now sprung for Greece and will probably spring for Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain.

Domination complete.

Game over.