to think that the cure for binge drinking is staring us in the face?

[TalkinPeace2]

Licensing Act 2003 clause 141
It is an offence to sell or attempt to sell alcohol to a person who is or appears to be drunk.
BUT the penalty is a maximum of £1000 per instance. (Criminal Justice Act 1982 clause 37)

If that penalty was amended to:
First offence close the doors for 24 hours 8am to 8am
Second offence 48 hours
Third offence 72 hours
Fourth offence - lose licence

then the police could close the pubs that cause the problem

then again the Government would never allow it because the booze industry pays so much in lobbying and sponsorship of all the political parties.
Shame

dont you think people should be able to drink?

What about the ones who drink at home, or the ones who take a half bottle in their bags?

It's not a terrible idea, by all means, but it won't cure it. Curing it is going to require complete cultural change, and that you can't legislate for.

yes, but they should not be served once they are too drunk to stand.
Its been in the law since 1898. It just needs enforcing.
I've been in pubs (in the 80's and 90's) where the landlord refused to serve people because they were too drunk
is that such a bad approach to return to?

Btw the pubs I drink in do enforce it, it's not that it's unused, it's just that it's also subjective as to what is too drunk isn't it?

no, not at all.

i suppose people can always get drunk at home

rhonda
indeed, but with the use of video and starting with pub serving people who can barely speak they are so hammered, a message would go out that the people profiting from it would no longer be able to do so.

stuff all chance of Cameron actually making the Police do it though as he is in the back pocket of the drinks companies (as were Broon and Bliar)

Th pubs aren't profiting much as it is, you noticed how many have closed?

I get what you're saying, it would help as another deterrent,but it won't cure it, sadly.

Did you know that there is no legal definition of drunk? There is a drink drive limit, but no actual limit as to when to stop serving someone.

It is down to judgement and experience as to when to stop serving. I have seen regular drinkers put away plenty and yet still be 'sensible' enough, get themselves home safely with no bother to anyone etc. I've also seen once a year drinkers at Christmas or office party puking into their handbag after their second drink.

Yes there are many irrisponsible licencees out there who don't give a shit about anything but their profits, but most sensible ones want to run a respectable establishment and will do their best to balance the different kinds of drinkers.

And of course also you get the ones whos friends keep buying them drinks while they are sat quietly in the corner and no-one notices how drunk they are until they try to stand up to go to the toilet.

Of course also there are the women who have different tolerences at different times of their cycle, and those who have eaten earlier and those who are drinking on an empty stomach.

What I'm saying is its not always easy for the bar staff to assess 'drunk', and I'd say most of them are just doing their best.

Agree but people will just continue to get more alcohol from shops and drink on the streets if they are kicked out of a pub.

It is indeed a cultural thing that needs to change - it needs to become socially unacceptable to be pissed out of your head every weekend.

rhonda
I've not seen many Wetherspoons closing lately ....

socks
there is a big difference between proper corner pubs and the big city centre mega pubs that have floors that can be cleaned with a squeegee
THOSE are the problem ones.
a £1000 fine to a little pub is crippling
to a mega pub or club its nothing - and their staff are paid to sell not obey the spirit of the law
and THEY are the reason that city centres become no go zones

my point is that making them close their doors is the ONLY thing that will affect the directors bonuses

I agree with you that this law which has been in place for ages should be used far more than it currently is. I rarely go to the pub now but did plenty in my younger days and have many friends who are licencees in all sorts of establishments from market town locals, to city pubs to country hotels. I also worked behind bars as a student and often found, both with the pubs and publicans I know well and those I worked in that staff would continue to serve people who had clearly had enough. And then they'd get the ass-ache and call the police when drunks caused trouble!

What I've never understood is why, when the police have turned up to situations where drunks have caused trouble (not that often, I have never chosen to drink in or work in dodgy pubs but nonetheless it's happened), and the poor goddamned police have sorted the problem and taken a load of abuse from the drunk but still not taken action against the publican who put themselves in the position in the first place by serving the offender.

Lunatic
Two officers could cover about twenty pubs an evening.
Remember they will close from the next morning for 24 hours so no enforcement needed, other than checking that the doors do stay shut..
Compare that with the 50 or 60 currently patrolling small city centres from 10pm to 4am

I don't get this either. There are pubs near me which are known for being where underage drinkers go - literally, there's no-one over 18 in there and it's blatent and obvious. The drink is cheap and it's just like the 6th form but on licensed premises. These places have bouncers on too. How can this go unchallenged?

No way could two officers cover twenty pubs.

The issue with wether spoons etc is the pricing. Not the staff. The staff have personal licenses they can lose too and have a lot more to lose than the chains. Lay off them a bit please! They are usually underpaid, shouted at by customers, often threatened with physical violence when they refuse to serve, an dust trying to pay the bills.

Of course, if you change the pricing in pubs, people just go back to the supermarket to drink at home or sneak a half bottle in.

I'm not saying its a bad idea - just that it's naive to think it would solve the problem.

In Scotland now by law you have to ask for ID before you serve anyone who appears to be under 25. Even if you know them, if they do t have the ID on them you can't serve them.

Perhaps, LunaticFringe, and only perhaps, if the law was acted upon when it was obvious that drunks were being served such as when the police were called out to deal with an incident in a pub, and if the punishment were severe enough, other publicans might think twice about serving those who'd clearly had enough for fear of losing their license and huge fines. That might reduce the problem significantly.

I'm looking at it like this there are a couple of people I'd love to punch on the nose and who darn well deserve it IMHO but I won't do it not just because that's not the way I am but also because of the punishment I and therefore my family would suffer if I did. If publicans had similar fears about their own businesses, freedoms and family welfare they may not be so willing to break the law IYSWIM.

OK its naive to think it will solve the problem
but naive to think its not worth the police attempting to properly enforce the law that we have?

a bit like the police not enforcing the law on phone hacking?
or the law on bribery of public officials?
or the law on mobile phones while driving?

lots of new laws get made and task forces created but actually it comes down to people thinking they will get caught so they will stop doing things

Ridiculous idea. Drunk people would just send their friends to the bar, or people would drink more at home.

They would still be binge drinking though.

And what happened to personal responsibility? Why don't we make people take responsibility for themselves instead of putting pressure on already struggling landlords.

Its all very well saying this TalkininPeace2 but there are various factors that you havn't taken in to consideration here, namely:

1. There should be some personal responsibility here rather than expecting other people to police your behaviour.
2. A lot of binge drinking on a night out actually takes place at home first where people drink all the cheap alcohol that they buy in supermarkets, supermarkets who sell booze cheaper than water.
3. Going on from Point 2, compared to 15 years ago there are far more places to buy cheap booze i.e. garages, corner shops, mini supermarkets, than there used to be - licences to sell which councils and the police granted without any thought to the consequences.
4. Northern Europeans don't drink responsible - have you ever had a night out in Iceland??

Appreciate what you're saying about lobbying but believe me the On trade i.e. pubs, restaurants etc would love to see better regulation and actively ask for a set price on alcohol units in the Off trade as this would put cheap booze out of reach of the supermarkets who would stop using it as a loss leader.

I worked in the pub trade for 10 years and met many responsible licencees who stuck to the law and didn't appreciate being put in the same bracket as the "pile-it-high-sell-it-cheap" retailers and chain pubs.

But IUse, if someone who's drunk sends his buddy to the bar to buy his drink in order to avoid being refused service the landlord can still refuse to provide that drink if they believe it's for someone who's had enough already. The landlord/lady retains the right to refuse to serve someone without having to give a reason why if I understand it correctly.

Kitchenroll
if its a mad idea, why has the offence of serving a drunk been on the UK statute book since 1898

alli
I know full well that water bottles full of vodka from asda are the true problem
BUT if people knew that if they arrived drunk at a club or pub they would be turned away from EVERY venue to sit in the cold, they would either stay home

• public order issue partly resolved

or drink less - ditto

I know full well that getting tanked up is part of the North European way - old friends worked the ferries from Norway to Harwich ....
its the fact that the errors in the UK licencing system have made town centres no go areas that needs sorting and I firmly believe that the law could be implemented in such a way to improve it.

Some people can be sober and then it just hit them suddenly.

How drunk someone is is subjective.

I know people with acquired boring injuries who have been treated like crap because their injury makes them sound drunk.

No one is saying you should serve drunk people. However your thread title is very U. And what you are proposing already happens, just due to the many difficulties people have explained, it isn't that straightforward to enforce.

I'm a uni student so my friends and I are the the typical binge drinking students.

We don't drink in pubs, it's too expensive. The very vast majority of binge drinking I see goes on at home before going out.