To refuse to let ExMIL have DD overnight?

[muminthecity]

There is a massive backstory to this, the basic jist is that DD's father was violent and abusive towards me, and shit with DD. I finally walked away when she was 1 (she's 6 now.) He had contact for a while but it was sporadic and he was never very interested in her. He stopped contact 4 years ago and I've never heard from him since.

ExMIL has maintained contact with DD, she sees her about once a month and is good with her, she obviously loves DD. However, she has gone against my wishes a few times in the past when looking after DD. I have only recently been able to trust her to have DD at her house for the odd afternoon here and there. DD always comes back happy, laden with gifts and has a good time. DD is due to go there on Thursday for the day and ExMIL has now asked if she can have her overnight. DD's cousin, who is around the same age as DD will also be staying the night, she and DD adore each other but don't get to see each other often.

My main reasons for saying no are:

1. I am worried that Ex might show up there, planned or not, which would confuse and upset DD.

1. MIL lives with her boyfriend, I don't know him very well at all, only met him twice, and I don't trust MIL's judgement when it comes to men.

1. That family are generally trouble, I have witnessed so many fights and arguments in that house which I wouldn't want DD to be exposed to. In fairness, all of her sons have moved out so there is unlikely to be any trouble now unless one or more of them turned up there.

So what do you think? AIBU?

what about saying i'd rather she did not stay overnight (maybe say shes not a great sleeper) but you'd be happy to pick her up a bit later - say 8pm? That way she gets all day and evening and only really 'misses out' the going to sleep bit.

I think what switch said is the way to go the tactful but not blaming them approach ,

Thank you for all of your kind messages. I have made my mind up and will be saying no to sleepovers for a while, at least until DD has spent more time at MIL's house (she's only ever been there a few times.)

I actually spoke to MIL today and it turns out that DD's cousin isn't sleeping over tomorrow after all, so it's not that big a deal and I don't feel too bad about saying no! I have agreed for MIL to have her from 10am-5pm which I think is enough for them to have quality time together and to play with her cousin.

TroisG - I understand what you are saying and to a degree I agree (and I probably wouldn't be letting her go there unaccompanied even in the daytime), but at night - it's a little more likely they would have been drinking, it's a little more likely the others will visit and there will be fighting, it's a little more likely that the the Op's DDs' father will turn up. The Op's DD doesn't know any of them very well, there's not good feeling between any of the adults and I would be worried they wouldn't call if she wanted to come home... a night is a bit scary when you are little and really want to go home, your cousin is asleep, your Grandmother is either asleep or wont ring your mummy to say you want to go home. To me, it all just adds up to not being a great idea - not that anything sinister, in particular, happens at night that won't happen in the day.

UPDATE

Well DD spent the day with exMIL yesterday as planned, it didn't exactly go well. MIL said she was bringing DD back at 5pm, she actually came home at 7.30pm. Not the biggest problem ever, it being school holidays and all, but a bit annoying.

When I phoned to see where they were, DD shouted down the phone to tell me that she had been speaking to her father and that she was going to see him . It transpired that MIL had allowed them to have a conversation, despite me making it very clear that I didn't want DD having contact with him. DD also told me that her father had said he would like to see her "if it's ok with Mummy." MIL then said that if Mummy says no, she will take DD to see him.

I am so upset that she went behind my back like this, confused DD and broke my trust. I want to cut her out of our lives completely now but I won't as I know that's not fair on DD. Would appreciate any words of wisdom if anyone has any?

Not sure if I have any wisdom on the subject but I would be furious! I think you are being more than reasonable to even consider still letting your daugher see MIL after this. I would make it very clear how angry you are and that she has broken your trust and if she wants to see her DGD in future it will be in your home supervised by you. If you let her take her out on her own she will take her to see her dad she has made her intentions very clear and cannot be trusted to follow your rules.

Thanks 5inabed, I think I will have to supervise her visits with DD from now on, as there is no way I can trust her after this.

Sorry, that'd be it for me.

Your ex is violent and abusive. You have good reason to want to protect your child from that. By that reckoning, your MIL isn't prepared to protect your daughter from violence and abuse.

If you can't trust her on this very biggest thing, there is no trust at all. There is also no respect - how dare she make this decision for you and your daughter?

I would be angrier than angry, and it wouldn't be the kind of anger that would blow over. She's shown you what she thinks of you and your daughter as a family, an entity to be respected and cherished - nothing. She's shown how little regard she has for what you have done, the steps you have taken, in maintaining contact.

I would be cutting contact for the foreseeable future, and telling her why. She does not get to make those kind of decisions for your daughter. If she thinks that she can, then she isn't grandmother any more, never has been.

If she's prepared to put her son and herself ahead of your daughter's wellbeing, that's all you need to know.

I'm not sure that supervised contact (I'd be too angry to have her in the house tbh) would work in this situation - above all, I'd want to get my point across by making it utterly clear to her that she has crossed the biggest line she could. She'd have a hell of a lot of grovelling to do before she even saw my daughter again, and the aim of that wouldn't be to punish, it would be to make her realise, absolutely, how out of line she was, and if there was a second chance, to make SURE she never even dared to think about doing something like that again.

However. I don't think I'd give a second chance, simply because I think that give it a year or two and your daughter will be being asked to keep secrets from you, will be taken to see her father, and from there on it's a slippery slope.

Sounds like your instincts about this family were spot on. Do you want your DD to spend family time here, become normalised to it?

Oh, and it being fair on DD - that's the difficult bit, but remember she is not of an age to be able to understand the issues here. You are, right now, in the position of having to do what you believe is best for her. If that is keeping her away from her father, then it's staring you in the face - keep her away from his lying, duplicitous mother. Don't give her the chance to teach your daughter to lie to you. Presumably that was the plan, no?

'If Mummy says no, I'll take you anyway' - have a think about what that's teaching your child. Next step: 'Now don't tell Mummy where we've been'

No way, no way at all. The worst breach of trust. Dangerous and wrong. Cut them out.

Thank you so much for your replies. I thought I might be told I was overreacting and wondered if I was letting my own feelings cloud my judgement a bit. I do think it would be best to stop contact all together but it won't be easy, MIL will not give up without a fight. She will do her best to feign innocence and to guilt trip me. I just need to stand firm on this.

When I discussed it with MIL yesterday she said that ex had phoned while MIL was out of the room and DD answered. She said she stopped the conversation as soon as she realised (after about 5 minutes, she said.) I know this is a lie, DD has only been to the house a couple of times, there is no way she would take it upon herself to answer the phone in somebody else's house, she just isn't like that.

I am so furious with MIL, I really am.

Your DD obviously has a very good relationship with her grandmother. It would be a shame for that to stop. BUT you don't trust anyone who tells a child it's ok to lie to their parent.

Supervised visits, neutral ground - cafe, park etc. I think thats the way forward.

However, you have a whole new ball game to contend with. What if the father wants to establish regular contact?

So now she has proven she cant be trusted and your wishes are ignored i would make sure contact happened at your house for a few hours each month/week.
I dont think its a good thing to stop contact all together as when your DD is older the inlaws will just use it against you. Your DD also should know her biological family.

I was going to reply and say put ground rules down about the exMILs bf ie he is not allowed to be unsupervised contact, ie not allowed to be left on his own with your DD and exMIL should be very open and honest with you but since she has shot herself in the foot i think you should now take control of the situation.

Good luck

Well her father has had nearly 4 years to establish contact and hasn't bothered yet, I doubt he's really interested, I think this is all MIL pushing things rather than him trying to get contact.

If I'm wrong, and he does decide to ask for contact, I will tell him to take me to court for proper arranged contact. It will never get that far though, he wouldn't be bothered with the hassle, he'd just leave it.

Feign innocence and guilt trip?

That too, says a lot about the woman you are trusting your daughter with.

Only been to the house a couple of times? Not so fantastically close, then. And already, she is paving the way to teach your daughter to lie and to try and manipulate the way YOU run YOUR family because she thinks it's best.

I really would not go any further with this relationship. And someone whose number you've blocked will have a hard time 'guilt tripping' you.

I would text and say please don't contact, we are taking a break for now. We will get in touch when we are ready. And know this: I will not stand for my daughter to spend time with someone who thinks it's ok to overrule her mother, or to teach her to lie. Learn that or say goodbye to us both.

And then don't take calls, and don't reply to texts, and just take time to think about what you really want to do.

Oh my goodness, that would be it for me also.

Seems to me that you have done more than enough.

I would write her a letter (its easier than trying to say it face to face or over the phone, and she can also read it again and actually think about it). TheCrunchunderfoot has summed up the situation really well, I'd be tempted to copy it .

I second the idea of sending a letter explaining in very clear terms about how she has broken your trust, and the consequences of these actions. Crunchunderfoot kind of sums up the main points. I would be beyond furious too !!

Good luck.

This proves that your instincts were absolutely 100% spot on, so please don't second guess yourself, you clearly do have good judgement, trust your gut.

If you decide you don't want to cut all contact with the MIL permanently perhaps you could just invite her to a cafe/etc around DDs birthday and Xmas, that way they stay in touch but you retain control of the situation. I wouldn't trust her to have her on her own again, until DD is of an age where she can leave the house if she's uncomfortable with the situation.
Either way, whatever you decide will be the right decision, you're the only one who is really putting your daughter first, her motives sound suspect at best, manipulative and unsafe at worst.

I also think what your ExMIL has done is absolutely outrageous and I'm not surprised you're wildly angry!

I think you should cut off contact for a while so that she knows she has crossed a line and that you will not put up with that kind of behaviour.

I also agree that she won't change and will just use this as ammo to keep you out of her plans for your DD and XP so I would not allow her unsupervised contact for a very long time. I imagine that she would have your XP waiting for your DD as soon as contact is re-established to get it done while she can!

Your MIL reminds me of my Grandma - my father's mother. I am no longer speaking to my own father and neither are my brother and sister. He fell apart after my mother's death and became an appalling, uncaring, damaging parent. Despite this, my Grandma thought the sun shone out of his you-know-where and would never hear a bad word against him, even when he displayed uncaring behaviour towards her! If he was around and I called to speak to her, she would put him on the phone, even if I said I didn't want to speak to him!

To me, your MIL sounds a lot like this - only concerned about her son and what she thinks is best for him, not concerned about your DD and what's best for her. After her forcibly making me speak to my dad, I didn't ring her for a couple of months and she knew why and didn't do it again! (Just contradicted myself - making a loss of contact might bring MIL to heel!)

Hope all this helps and keep up the good work!

Oh yes, that must be it now.

When my (ex)MIL went behind my back and allowed my ex round to see visiting DS, I told her that she had ruined it dor herself and DS.

Her breaking my trust would mean that she no longer see's DS now. She tried to feign innocence and say that she didn't know but she knew all right.

It's because they see that their sons haven't really done anything bad when thay have. Poor dilluded cows.

Personally I'd tel MIL that she is only allowed contact in your house from now on due to broken trust. You don't have to be in the same room as they play/chat etc and can maybe make a cake in the kitchen or something to be in the background. Highlight that exh is abusive and violent and so access can only be through you so you can safeguard DD.

yes and i the lying and underhand tactics have to stop or your contact will.