AIBU to think this miserable bugger gives the rest of us atheists a bad name?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Victory on Council Prayers

Surely there was a way to let others say a simple opening prayer without accusing people of breaching his human rights, flouncing out of the council and then taking the matter to court?

'I see it as something like taking a stand against sexist or racist jokes' - no exexpat, there's no similarity at all

The UK culture is largely based on christian beliefs, like it or not and much of our current traditions are based on this. The majority of the population is christian and tolerant of other religions, which is why we can have this debate. If we want to get rid of our christian background, culture and upbringing because it is offensive to others, we need to abolish all christian symbolism, all christian festivals such as Christmas and easter and all faith based schools, the monarchy and many of our charitable organisations.

crystalglasses I would refer you to slug's posting of 16:39:22
"As we contemplate the implications of the High Court decision that the saying of prayers as part of local council business is illegal, the National Secular Society is bracing for an absolute torrent of abuse, exaggeration, misrepresentation and hysteria from conservative sources."

I regard your comment "If we want to get rid of our christian background, culture and upbringing because it is offensive to others," as belonging firmly in the "exaggeration, misrepresentation and hysteria" camp. Not having prayers on the Agenda of a meeting really doesn't suggest that at all.

Oh don't be silly whereyouleftit - I was responding to some of the other posts

The prayers haven't been scrapped because they're offensive to others, they've been scrapped because they break the law.

I think a few minutes of silent contemplation is a very good thing.

I think if it is, as in the lords, spoken words about the Christian god then it's a bit presumptuous and exclusive.

Bush, Chainy, Rumsfeld and all those lovely people used to have prey meetings every morning.extremes like that make me accutly uneasy.

He's a Militant Athiest Extremist.

As for teh NSS, if they knew it would unleash "a repeat of the usual accusations that we have destroyed Christianity in Britain, trampled religious freedom, taken away the right to pray, discriminated against believers, hijacked the judicial system etc., etc." - why do it?

To what end?

I'm married to a militant athiest, it's like trainspotting with science

From what I understand a 'militant atheist' is one who has the temerity to disagree with religious people.

Atheist extremists are ones who kick up a fuss at the privilege unthinkingly accorded to religion.

At least it's not the blowing stuff up that other extremists go for, I suppose.

IMO religion is personal thing and has no place at work where it's a purely a professional setting. If you were an atheist you wouldn't expect your solicitor to say prayers before consulting with you? They would do it alone in a personal setting first.

Plus frankly it's a waste of meeting time, meetings take too long generally as it is.

I agree with Aprilskies. I am an athiest, and believe that secularity should be the default position, not religion. Totally agree with this man. Of course it's a shame that it had to go through the legal system, but that is hardly his fault, as he wasn't the one who was breaking the law in the 1st place.

YABU, massively so.

I am a councillor, an amongst other ludicrously outdated an divisive traditions, this is an issue that I have been offended by.

A councillor is expected to attend meetings. Figures on attendance are published. When a councillor normally absents themselves during a meeting, it is for a very important reason, ie. they have a prejudicial interest in a matter in hand an therefore should not be present. You can't just walk out for a little while when you feel like it. Press and public are there.

Is it appropriate to spend precious time (and public money) worshiping, when many members will not be believers, or may even be offended?

Many of the arguments on BBC etc. website against this ruling is that an atheist could just sit an think. At ours, all must stand, as decreed by the chair. Some (myself included) stand and look around the room, but I know that many obediently close their eyes and whisper 'amen' simply because they don't want to be criticised by their political leader.

It is divisive. Not a wide enough variety of people stand for election. Christian prayers give the impression that only Christians are welcome to stand for election. Granted, most people are not offended by prayer, but some are. As it is not possible to sit the prayers out, I do believe that some of these people will be put off standing for election.

In my town, you see the same old boys network everywhere. The Masons are town councillors, district councillors and county councillors. Most are also members of the local Conservative Club. We need variety, not incest.

I think he is a miserable person and the prayers were not causing any harm. Perhaps it is good to honour a higher power and yes he could have sat outside if he felt so strongly about it.

Whatever he thinks, this is a traditionally christian country and our laws and principles are founded on christianity. I know things change but perhaps the councillors are asking for guidance and wisdom when making decisions etc for the people of their district.

Crystalglasses, the ruling today has nothing to do with "getting rid of our christian background, culture and upbringing because it is offensive to others". It is about clarifying the fact that council meetings are not the place for compulsory prayer.

No one is stopping anyone from praying, or cancelling Christmas or closing down churches. All that has happened is that a council has been told to take prayers off the formal agenda for meetings. As far as I can tell, the councillors will still be free to pray if they want, it just won't be an official part of the meeting. Is that really so dreadful?

Or do you think that tradition should be enough of an excuse to impose religious views and practices on people who don't share those views?

All the National Secular Society (and I and most other atheists I know) want is for there to be a clear separation of state and church in public affairs. I have no desire at all to prevent Christians getting on with their own religious affairs, I just don't think they should impose them on everyone else.

No really, he couldn't have sat outside because being there was part of his job as councillor. If you, as a Christian, are summoned to a meeting, would you be OK with being expected to prostrate on a muslim prayer mat?

I can't actually believe you think it's ok. What if you have 5 different religions in a meeting? You'd be there all day. Complete rubbish, get on with the job that you are being paid to do. Since when do taxpayers pay for prayer time?

no I wouldn't want to partake in Muslim prayer as I am a practising christian.

However I suppose the christians could pray beforehand but I do wonder if they will be made to feel uncomfortable about this.

If councillors are asking for guidance and wisdom from above before conducting council business, then given the state of things, perhaps evidence-based and reasoned decision-making would be worth a shot instead.

If you, as a Christian, are summoned to a meeting, would you be OK with being expected to prostrate on a muslim prayer mat?

If you have ever worked in muslim countries or with devout muslims, its perfectly normal for them to trot out a meeting and say their prayers.

Doesn't worry me in the slightest.

alemci "I think he is a miserable person and the prayers were not causing any harm." but "I wouldn't want to partake in Muslim prayer as I am a practising christian"??

So why is OK for you to not want to partake?

I am sure they could do both Giraffe. I know what you are saying though :)

There is a difference between being at a meeting when someone happens to pray, to being at a meeting where you praying is an expected and integral aspect. Can you not see the difference?