To think that women define themselves too much by their bodies?

[silentcatastrophe]

Diets don't work. Surgery is dangerous. High heeled shoes are uncomfortable and make-up has been poisonous. I was teaching a child to ride and she was fretting about looking fat in johdpurs. I told her that it was much more important what her body could do than what it looked like. Whatever we do to ourselves, we are never going to look like Jessica Rabbit!

my dd 12 has started to have issues with body image,I do not want to perpetuate what happened to me as a child so instead of letting her obsess about it I am encouraging her to come out running with me,to feel happy with muscles and feeling fit rather than ranting (and she has been already) about the size of her legs/waist ect.

I find it really really sad at how early it starts these days :(

It happened to me in the mid '70s. I think my mum hated fat people. She was thin then. These days, she is ridden with Alzheimers (early onset) She now looks like a stick. What did her fussiness do for her? (rhetorical). Good for you Quiet. It seems to be happening to younger girls. We don't have weighing scales in the house. Having endured a long term eating disorder, I think that other things are more important!

I don't think you can blame women for internalising messages that they are fed from the day they are born. The message that the most important thing about a woman, is how hot she is, is one which is fed us all the time. That moron Mary Queen of Shops wrote an article recently criticising the clothing of the women in either the cabinet or the shadow cabinet, I can't remember which. Because of course, we've got to care (and so do they) at least as much about what they look like, as what they actually do, even when what they do, is run the bloody country, or prepare to.

And of course women police whether other women are attaining the correct beauty standards or not -men can remain above it all with a lofty aloofness as if they're not involved (except when they choose to yell obscenities at us from their white vans, of course) and make amused remarks about how bitchy women are about each other. Those at the bottom, scrabble for status among their peers at the bottom while those at the top, can regard them with amused indulgence.

The message that women are defined by their appearance is reinforced daily by so much of our media. I know it's not the height of cool to be reading tabloids, but such a large proportion of people do and the language is so sexist. At uni we looked at this, and women in the tabloids, whether being reported as victims of crime, professionals, criminals etc were, with few exceptions named with descriptions of their appearance, eg stunning Jessica, yummy mummy Claire etc as a mark of approval. The media's hunger for pictures of slebs looking amazing and/or not made up/tired/stressed reinforces it further; but the readers pay their wages.......

The beauty ideal portrayed and promoted by the media is a physique that most of us simply cannot achieve or maintain without at least one of the following: surgery, extreme dieting, a fitness regime that would be impossible to combine with small children/full time job/normal existence. Most of us are not blessed with size 4/6/8 figures and mahoosive knockers (I'm sure I'd tip over if I was blessed with such a figure...). To maintain such a physique would require more exercise than I could cram into the day (I eed to work and I need to spend non-working hours with my DS, keeping the house and sleeping, as most of us do) and having a boob job, because my boobs are the first to go when losing weight and the last to imflate when I'm piling on the pounds. Can't win, but then I do not need to feel I'm winning in most people's eyes :)

Surely if men were to recognise, acknowledge and support in the disapproval of appearance based women bashing it would not have a place in society?

Exactly maristella

The 2 biggest criticisms that can be slung at a woman are to slag her off as a parent, and to slag her off for the way she looks. And the word slag refers to a woman's perceived poor behaviour. Could say 'bitched'? Oh here we are again. And the terms of nastiness previously referred to for men, motherfucker and bastard are also direct references to womens conduct.

And thanks Basil :)

Very interesting thread this. I was blessed with a pretty ideal figure when I was younger, despite eating whatever the hell I liked - big breasts, small waist, not so keen on the legs but could cover those up, hip bones just visible in a flat belly...

However, at that period in my life, I'd pretty much internalised that that's all I had to offer. I honestly considered myself to be pretty stupid, and I've always struggled with depression so I was convinced of my defective personality. So I maximised what I thought were my only assets, and dressed to display them to maximum effect. Low cut and tight goes down pretty well with men, but doesn't tend to go down well with other women - if you want their approval I think you're supposed to follow fashion and be constantly told what you should be wearing. 'Read this magazine! Are you in this season's colours?! Spend hundreds of ££ on this dress, and thousands on this bag that I wouldn't buy for a fiver in a charity shop ! Maxi dresses don't suit you? Who cares? You must wear them anyway! Can't afford to be fashionable? But you must - just put it on the credit card!'

You can tell I'm not a follower of fashion. It took me years though, to realise that I had more to offer than big tits and a small waist. Luckily that happened in time to comfort me as those big tits head south and the hip bones have disappeared under a layer of doughiness. Now I watch what I'm eating when my size 12 trousers get too tight, and I dress to flatter my shape with what I know suits me. I think that the pressure to be thin and well dressed does come predominantly from other women, but results from a centuries old internalised belief that our use in life is often decorative - be pretty and feminine, don't make noise or fuss, do as you're told and let the men get on with the important stuff.

Also, as society gets fatter, the elite get thinner. It's a way of differentiating yourself from the proles, isn't it. In cultures where food is scarce, to be large is to be beautiful, as it's a sign of prosperity and power. But we have an excess of cheap shit junk food available, so the western world is getting fatter. Therefore the people at the top of the food chain, so to speak, show their power by being very thin.

HOw interesting. I wonder if it is also a factor that humans as a species seem to have slammed on the breaks of their evolution in the West by preserving life at all costs. Instead of evolving like other living things, we are becoming increasingly artificial and in need of more and more artifice to look 'normal'.
It took me a long time to recognise that if I was going to live, I had to have a body to live in. I couldn't be invisible.

We are too obsesed with looks, body shape and image

You don't have a soul,you are a soul, you have a body to dwell in.

We all need to pay a bit more attention to the inside, and stop worrying so much about the external.

I refuse to conform to the beauty myth

I refuse to be a product of the capitalist mincing machine that keeps us disatisfied and thus keeps us buying

I have lumps and bumps and curves but I am a sensuous, feeling and intelligent woman. I am not merely a body, a machine to use and abuse.

I don't give a shit about invisibility, the notion of having to be someone special is part of the same narcissistic bullshit anyway. I am satisfied in my monogonous marriage with a man who likes my real body. I am not starved and waxed but I am healthy. My satisfaction is bad for markets though

I think trees a difference to not enjoying our body, and embracing our body, rather than being a blanket 'defined' by.

For example I spent years hating my size and figure (hourglass size 12) and wanted to go back to how I looked at 16 (nt developed stick). Recently though I've embraced my figure. So now I put a lot of effort into how I look, clothes, make up, etc and I look damn hot! And I do have self conscious moments, (would never wear jodphurs, but don't horse ride so moot point) but I think that's normal.

I don't know if I've explained that well, but basically I put effort in for me but like it when other people think I'm hot too, but don't think that makes me shallow.

Well i am the stereotypical feminist. I wear jeans, clumpy boots and baggy jumpers for much of the time. My fanjo grows wild and i only shave my underarms/legs if they are likely to be on show.

I rarely wear make up.

When i do decide to get myself dolled up i look pretty good i think. But im a mother of two and have the body to prove it.

I wish I was immune to it all. I am a smart, intelligent and, I reckon, nice person, but I still think that people see me as either fat or thin. And, after losing 3.5 stone in a year, I am proved mostly correct. I haven't changed my style or attitude- I have less confidence than ever. But people see me now. And that is so very sad, because it means that the exact same me, in a different shell, means more to a lot of people. :(

So very true BelleEnd. I've found exactly the same - people treat you differently according to your size. And no, it's not to do with something else like "appearing less confident if you're larger" - it comes as quite a shock when people treat you differently, when you'd thought you were just yourself as usual!

I need to lose weight, but part of me thinks that at least I know who's a truly nice person and possible friend, just by how they respond to me as a larger person.