to worry about DS's social skills when he is only two years old?

[Bethshine82]

DS is 2.7 and I am slightly concerned about his behaviour in groups of children. Specifically when it involves participating. He is not too bad one to one with friend's children and will play alone at toddler groups fairly happily but he is just not interested in taking part in any group activities. He will not stand in a circle to sing, dance or take part in any craft activities that other children are doing. He won't be gently encouraged and if I persist it leads to him screaming and lying on the floor.I do not think he is scared or shy he just seems to be completely unwilling to even attempt to take part.
We have dropped out of swimming, tumble tots and rhythm time because it was just too horrific. DS is size of 5 year old and half my body weight so when he just drops to the floor and refuses to move I really struggle. We would arrive at these places, he wouldn't be too bad for the first few weeks (would sometimes sit in circle and occasionally join in, would wait turn etc, not great and not as co-operative as other children but I thought at least it was a start) but then he would get worse as time went on and by the fifth or sixth week in I wouldn't even be able to get him through the door. He would refuse to get out of the car, I would force him, he'd be screaming and if I eventually managed to get him into the building he would spend the entire time running for the door. He is very physically active so I thought we might do better at tumble tots and swimming, but no, exactly the same.
He is NO interest in what the other children are doing and seemingly does not enjoy these things. Yet at home he will happily sing, dance, do actions to rhymes, paint etc. In fact he is a completely different child at home and in places that are very familiar to him such as his grandparent's house. I would say his reluctance to participate comes from being scared or phased by something new but I do not think this is the case as he actually gets worse the longer we attend something. It's like he gets bored.

AIBU to be concerned? All the other children at these groups seemed to manage the majority of the time. I am not expecting him to take part ALL the time and sit quietly and join in but AIBU to think he should be able to do these things sometimes? The other children are a similar age but seem much more sociable and willing to join in. I am concerned because he should start nursery in September and school the following year but I just have visions of him running for the door all the time and refusing to go.

God that's long.

Why havent my paragraphs worked?!

Children don't actally play together until their 3 years old on avrage so he dose not seem to be doing anything an normal

Sharing in lernt and is not somthing your born with, which is why some only children are charged with being selfish as adults as they never have had to share

Also you much allow for personailty as well some children just like playing on their own and some child find it hard and always need somone to play with

I myself enjoy my own company always have I hate groups I never throw parties to my firends annoyance and I don't enjoy meeting my firends in large groups preferring to meet them separately

He actually isn't too bad with sharing.

It's the joining in bit that worries me. All the other children are enjoying themselves but DS just won't take part!

My DS took years to participate in group activities. We just did playgroups as he hated tumble tots etc format and didnt want to be told what to do.

My advice would be let your DS play alongside other children at playgroups and gradually join in ie short singing session at the end or 5 minuts of craft or playdoh during the session and gradually it will build up, dont force long structured sessions like tumble tots.

I can remember us practicing party games at home with our Ds every night for a month in the lead up to a party aged 4 and he did then join in a little!
Whereas my other DC's seemed to know how and love joining in.

Greatly improved once at school and amazing now to watch school play or dance show and see him join in.

I could have written your post. My ds is exactly the same. He will not join in with circle time/ singing etc and happily plays alone at toddler groups etc. he does have a few friends we've known since he was a baby and he does like to play with them though. He has just started nursery (3.2 yo) and seems to be getting on fine, but only been a few weeks.

I have decided it is an age, development and personality thing for my ds. I just keep offering the opportunity to be a part of things, and now no longer stress when he doesn't. He has got a bit more likely to join in with age.

It's stressful and I'm afraid I have no advice, but just wanted to say you're not alone!

I think it would be worth making an appointment to see your health visitor. She will be able to spot if there's anything worth further investigation. Doesn't automatically mean has has any SN, but they might be able to direct you to support, develop strategies with you for helping him if there are any areas of his development that need bit of extra help.

Are there any other things your worried about?

Not really, he's fine with adults, very verbal etc. He can empathise and can play with individual children who he knows. He is very good with imaginative play. I was slightly concerned that the fact he seems unable to cope in noisy busy places might be a sign of ASD but when I thought about it he copes places such as bowling alleys and soft plays fine and they are loud and busy.

It is specifically group activities that is the problem, structured group activities. I did think I might speak to hv about it though. Possibly he just wants to do what he wants to do and that's it. It only worries me a bit because like I say, the other children his age manage it the majority of the time.

He has also developed an imaginary friend who he will talk to a lot and has to be included all the time. I think it is easier for him to have an imaginative friend who will always cooperate and do what he wants but I must admit I am also a bit worried about 'Mr spider'

imaginary

A good, proper state nursery (ie an educational establishment, rather than childcare), once he's old enough will have staff who will observe and highlight any issues with you. He's young, so still developing. Nursery age is when any issues might come to light.

I had concerns when my ds was that age, turns out he does have asd. But I still reccomend speaking to hv even if you think that's not an issue. At a speech therapy group we attended many children didn't have any special needs, just struggled a bit with speech. They may be similar things that will be useful for your son? But normally you only hear about them by being referred, so it's important to see someone.

Sounds like he struggles more with attention. He is very young, so not a problem now of course, but you may be able to prevent any future struggles wit the right support now.

Sorry if I'm making it all sound very serious! Bit tired and struggling to phrase what I'm trying to say!

He has never been in childcare as I am a sahm and sometimes I wonder if this is why he is less social than some (most) other children. I wonder if he'd been in childcare sooner he might be different. I have always tried to take him places and do things with him though so that he doesn't miss out on social interaction.
Is an imaginary spider weird? Apparently it's his 'friend'.

I wondered about something like Adhd or ADD but I will say at home and in familiar settings with familiar people he is fine. Can play for a long time with things and can concentrate long enough to read several story books. I'd say attention span is around half an hour to am hour at home.
But when out he seems to be over excited and unable to handle all the stimulus, he is like a different child. He's always been very easily over stimulated. When he was a baby he'd cry for hours because of it and he's always been a poor sleeper.
Could this still point to something like Adhd?

By familiar settings I mean home and familiar adult's homes.
Not alas tumble tots, which was familiar but did not have the same affect.

Have you considered that he may simply have a sensitive nature that is overwhelmed with too much stimulation and noise.

Take a look at this book the highly sensitive child and see if he fits.

It would just be that he fitted somewhere along a non-SN spectrum of a particular personality type.

You would be wise to have a professional evaluation though.

I really wouldn't like to speculate. Try not to think about labels too much (difficult I know!) but just is there anything your child needs help with. With my ds he seems to have a sensory imbalance rather than being solely oversensitive. This can make a very even pattern of behaviour and responses and makes him difficult to predict, so people often can't tell he has asd.

It is possible to struggle with something without it being a sn of course, so I really don't want to worry you uneccessarily. At the group we went to, it was more about attention and listening, as these were the skills necessary before learning language, so there was a very interesting mix of children.

You can ask hv to refer you for further assessment if you think it might be useful? Even though it all sounds scary, it's much better to seek out help. I think the meltdowns you described in your first post sound like something that he needs some help with? I have an friend who's ds does not have asd, but lots of similar personality traits. We parent in very similar ways! But her son very good at playing, imagination, speech etc.

I don't want you to think I'm saying he must have asd, I'm not, just worth looking a bit closer to see how you can make things a bit easier for you and him.

I had an imaginary dog when I was very little; I'd say an imaginary spider was along the same lines.

have you had his height checked versus mid-parental height? is he off the charts?
just coz there are some overgrowth conditions /endocrine conditions - but depends if his height is normal for your family or not . if he is exceptionally tall for your family ask gp to refer to endocrine doctors for assessment

He is over the 100th centile for height and weight. He was big all through pregnancy and all the men in his family - father, uncles and grandfathers are over six foot. He is very tall though - 112cm and already size 11 shoe! How do I check mid-parental height? I am average height of 5"5 and DH is 6"4.

Thanks for all the advice, I will try and contact my ellusive hv next week. Probably with limited success. I know my local children's centre was running a SULP type program so that might be worth a go. With adults he can join in organised games such as dominos, snap, pairs etc it seems to be groups of children that are the problem. Everything seems to need to need to be on his own terms.

He does love Mr Spider, he pretends his hand is the spider. He looks like Mr Garrison with Mr Hat in South Park.

Sounds not unlike my DS at 2.7 - played happily with his friends but was atrocious in circle time at gym club. Fortunately when the older male coach was there during the holidays (young female coach normally took the group) he said not to worry as in his experience almost all the small boys were like this (I don't like gender stereotyping, but boys do seem less biddable in social situations early on). I think if he shares/plays in small groups he's almost certainly fine, and I wouldn't worry too much about larger groups particularly if he's not going to preschool/nursery and isn't used to having to negotiate large groups on a daily basis. It also varies from one child to another. One of DS's little friends is a very sensitive, quiet boy, and at his 4th birthday was clearly overwhelmed by the actual party, but after most of the children had gone home and he was left to romp around the garden with half a dozen children he knew really well from nursery, he was perfectly happy. By the way, I disagree with the thesis (I think Oliver James is one of its proponents) that children don't play together till they're 3 - DS has been doing it since about 18 months (hard to place exactly when parallel play with a preferred companion turns into genuine playing together, but it's way before 3 for a lot of children).

He gets excited about seeing children he knows and will be sad when they go home and ask when he will see them again.

I am just worried because he seems to have no interest in conforming and I feel like he is missing out a bit. For example took him to gym today (less structured than tumble tots) and most of it is pretty free choice which he was fine with. Then they have about 10 mins where the children play some games and do racing. All the others love it but DS will not even attempt it. Not even entertain the idea. Nor will he just sit and watch, he wants to go back to doing whatever it was he was doing before and will start to attempt to get the free play equipment back out whilst I try and stop him! Maybe he's just a bit naughty!

DS1 flatly refused to participate in anything structured and group until he was about 4. From birthday party games to music classes, 'joining in' at the theatre to doing the actions with a TV programme he NEVER did it. And got cross if I tried to as well. He was nicknamed 'The Pied Piper' by the teacher at one gym group we went to once as he just did his own thing at the side and the rest of the children followed him. (The first and last time we went.)

We went to the same art group every week for about 2 years and he eventually joined in the singing there. At nursery he did what he was told when it was carpet time but they struggled to get him to participate in actions or dancing or anything. I just didn't take him to the groups that were more structured after a while.

Those groups and activities were just not to his liking. I wish I'd had the confidence to drop them and just stick with the unstructured stuff earlier. It would have saved us a lot of heartache and him a lot of distress. I worried because all my friends' DCs seemed to like them but DH never did. DS1 is at school now, participating in everything, and enjoying himself. So I guess what I'm saying is, without really knowing your situation, I recognise ours as having been similar and it's probably OK!

FWIW I hate organised fun too. And at South Park!

Don't worry about mid parental height (though the red book/ NHS 0-5 book will have the formula) - the calculation comes with a +/- however many centimetres (an error bar) which is blardy huge. Basically the formula amounts to a statement that genetics being what it is, DS may take after his DM, DF, or be anywhere in between, but is less likely to be -though can still be - outside this range. So not actually very helpful. (My DS for instance has got all my teeny-tiny shortarse genes and none of his father's perfectly average height genes).

Aww my DS is like this, at playgroup the bit he loves best is when they tidy all the toys away to sing. 'cept he won't sit down he just wants to charge round shouting while all the other kids sing. It's mainly girls at most the playgroups we go to though so just figured it's a big boisterous ball of energy boy thing.
DD mainly played alongside other kids till she started nursery too though. Am sure it's just an age thing.

Bear in mind parents are more likely to take well behaved children to more structured groups so they are likely be better than averagely behaved. Also kids who are used to childcare also respond better to the structure. Your son sounds normal to me but if you are worried talk to health visitor.