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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to ask my ex brother in law to properly employ my son

36 replies

CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 12:41

My eldest (18) is a student but has quite regular work at his uncles coffeehouse.

I found out last week that it is all cash in hand so no tax or national insurance being paid

I mentioned to ds1 that it his work....however casual , should go through the books

He's stated that BIL does this and it's easier to pay someone cash in hand?

DS also thinks if 'tackle it' and suggest BIL puts him on the books , it won't be worth his while having him there?

My son is getting work experience and a refernece and pay .......the business is family owned (on my ex husbands side)

Is it better to ignore it or say something ?

OP posts:
LIZS · 13/01/2012 12:46

You could check that it is being logged in case he needs to record his employment at a later stage (for JSA for example). However it is very unlikely he is earning above the tax or ni threshold anyway if it is casual and not full time.

EauDeLaPoisson · 13/01/2012 12:48

I wish my uncle had a coffee house Sad

FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 12:51

He wont be covered under your BIL's insurance if your son has an accident of any sort as he is not on PAYE and theoretically does not work there.

By employing him it will cost your BIL money if he earns over £110 a week plus holiday pay.

I think you are going to find your son now out of work.

He needs to either go to Uni or get a proper job. If he signs on at all he won't be able to declare the job with your BIL.

Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 12:51

he gets £50 for a day and does on average 2 days a week.

Does this mean the tax and National insurance issuses are just something I'm worrying about and aren't really an issue ?

That would put my mind at ease

OP posts:
Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 12:54

fabbychic he is a fulltime student ....they 'job' is done outwith hours

OP posts:
FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 12:56

He wouldnt pay tax or national insurance on 100.00 a week however, he would get holiday pay ie four weeks paid. Without tax or NI he cannot declare having done the job if he ever had to sign on.

FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 12:56

Oh and he wouldn't be insured to work there.

canyou · 13/01/2012 12:57

I have worked for years in catering and can say hand on heart that anyone on min hours/students were always paid cash in hand, now I am not in the UK but it would have cost money to put someone on the books and that amount of money could be taken from petty cash no problem. It is not right probably not legal but interfering may cost your DS his job, and that is a lot of cash for a student.

Crawling · 13/01/2012 12:59

I think as your DS is 18 a adult you should tell him your fears and then butt out (sorry) and respect his decision. You cant run his life forever and that sometimes means letting him make mistakes.

upwalthambarnsahoy · 13/01/2012 13:04

Just because it is cash in hand does not mean that it is not being accounted for correctly in the books of the business!

FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 13:05

Cash in hand is not PAYE.

There is a difference. One is legal one is not.

FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 13:06

He can however be paid cash and be on the books i.e PAYE.

EauDeLaPoisson · 13/01/2012 13:06

I used to get paid cash in hand and still had tax deducted..Fabby maybe just maybe on this occassion you dont actually know everything.

lazarusb · 13/01/2012 13:10

I would be concerned about the insurance aspect. If he had an accident etc.

Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 13:13

crawling good point .....it is up to him to make his own mistakes but this is his first dabble at employment so I think it's okay to put my tuppence worth in .

If he ignores it , he ignores it Grin

Fabbychic he shouldn't get holiday pay it's a casual arrangement as in when DS1 is skint he asks if if can do a day and when BIL thinks he'll be busy he asks DS1 to come in

OP posts:
Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 13:16

If he had an accident .....what tripping over a table or scalding himself on hot water......it would be an accident ...I'd hardly encourage my son to claim on his uncles insurance

OP posts:
canyou · 13/01/2012 13:16

Fabby makes a good point, is he getting payslips? He can get cash payments and be legal but unless he has a payslip I would think it is under the counter.

Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 13:21

it is under the counter ! that was what I was concernced about

OP posts:
SarahBumBarer · 13/01/2012 13:29

If he is only earning £100 pw then there is no reason not to be employed since there should be no tax or NI anyway (if this is his only paid employment). Furthermore it makes no sense for your BIL not to do it all above board since 1) there is no tax cost to him if it is less than £100 2) if he is not declaring it then equally he can't deduct it from his profits as a tax deduction.

Are you sure your DS has the facts straight on this? It is amazing (as per this thread) how many people wrongly assume that cash authomatically equals tax dodge!

toddlerama · 13/01/2012 13:30

Being paid cash in hand is NOT illegal - however, your son must register as self employed. He will have to submit a self-assessment tax return each year, and if he is earning so little, will have no tax to pay. But it is actually your son's legal responsibility, not your ex-bils.

SarahBumBarer · 13/01/2012 13:30

Sorry BIL should be the uncle

StrandedBear · 13/01/2012 13:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
CreamolaFoamless · 13/01/2012 13:41

toddlerama that's how the whole thing begin ! We walkded past a bug advert for tax returns and I said ;have you thought about your tax return for 2010/2011'

He is off the books .....almost a ghost employee.......

He can hardly register as self employed , he is an 18 year old working in uncles coffeehouse.

A self employed , freelance cup picker upper

OP posts:
WibblyBibble · 13/01/2012 13:45

TBH I have had work like this and I registered as self-employed so I got national insurance paid (it's only about £2 a week or something really low, it was that when I was on it anyway) so you aren't off-the-record as having worked- though in my case it was my main job not a student job. This meant I was able to get maternity allowance when my boss refused to provide the statutory requirement of maternity leave and pay (obviously not a problem for your son but may be for others working in the cafe). If he reports it then he risks losing the job and your ex-BIL getting in a lot of (perfectly justified but family-rift-creating) trouble, so if he really needs the job he needs to find a way round it. I could have made a big thing as obviously legally I was an employee rather than self-employed but would have lost the job. Employers can get away with a lot, and can often employ people e.g. without good English who don't understand the NI system anyway so it's no loss to them (hence all the wank about 'British people won't take jobs that Polish people will'- yes, because they are under-the-table cash jobs with no NI, insurance, maternity leave, etc. so you won't get a pension/ssp/mat pay if you stay in one long-term, fine if you can go somewhere else and get a state pension and cheap housing but if you're a citizen who's going to be around long-term you need to pay your NI).

WibblyBibble · 13/01/2012 13:46

He can reg as self-employed, I was a clerk in an office and I did it, and I was only 19 then too, so it's hardly that difficult for a teenager! He just needs an invoice book and a form from HMRC.