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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think something has got to be done about a&e waiting times

125 replies

McHappyPants2012 · 13/01/2012 10:55

in the last few days i have been to the hospital with my DD (aged 2) tuesday night was 5 hours and last night close to 6 hours.

OP posts:
Jenstar21 · 13/01/2012 12:20

I was recently in A&E with suspected appendicitis at about 3am one Tuesday morning. They were great. It was quiet, so I was seen within 5 mins of arriving, and whipped straight through. The only thing which delayed matters was them insisting on doing 3 pregnancy tests before x-ray!

Also, years ago, when my lung collapsed, I was through and on monitors and oxygen before my Mum could get back from the car park.

A broken ankle however required about a 3 hour wait, on a Saturday evening, in a city centre hospital (not drunk - had been playing rugby!).

I think these are reasonable, and tally with the seriousness of the injury/illness.

thereonthestair · 13/01/2012 12:23

Worra I do agree that sometimes colds are minor and sometimes we are perhaps all capable of being a bit precious about our children and what is an emergency. But just a cold (checked by the lab that it was just a cold - culture grown was rhinovirus) led my husband and I to discuss whether my sone would pull through and the risk of being ventilated overnight (he would have been but we were at a teaching hospital where they can keep a very close eye on things because they can act very quickly rather than have to transfer the children from elsewhere where they act first as they aren't on site).

From the paediatric staff I spoke to that was in fact a very common reason for particularly young children to be admitted and some do still die from just a cold.

I don't sanction basically fit children going to A+E but if in doubt I would always recommend that a child is taken there if there is nowhere else to go (and NHS direct don't have sats monitors)

I would also add that when I broke my arm I was taken to A+E by ambulance, because I was passing out from the pain and speed prevented nerve damage from the frankly horrific fracture. So a broken wrist can be an emergency too. In fact IME of the three times I have gone to A+E by ambulance for myself the broken arm was the biggest emergency in terms of speed of response and long term consequences , the other instances were frightening but not the same. (Ectopic pregnancy, probable placental abruption, and broken arm) I was bluelighted on each occasion.

In all cases I have however been seen within 30 minutes, whether the three for myself or the instances for my husband when he blocked his windpipe or my son (the cold as mentioned above, an apnoea attack, and bronchiolitus twice) and on only one occasion I have been there for me or my son did they breach the 4 hour rule. I have gone in at many times of day and night and in my view it makes little difference to wait time.

Scholes34 · 13/01/2012 12:25

My DCs have been to A&E more times than I'd care. We've never been left longer than I've thought reasonable, bearing in mind what we've gone down for (fractured skull - that pleased the health visitor, broken collar bone, broken wrist, cuts requiring stitches and more). With the broken collar bone it was standing room only in the children's waiting room, but we were seen quickly enough.

I've sometimes wondered whether, by the time I've got to A&E, I really needed to go (DC3 decided to come down a fireman's pole in a park without holding on and was winded such that he couldn't walk initially), but on the last occasion I felt quite justified when I had to announce to the triage nurse that I needed to find my DS who had been brought down by ambulance with his broken wrist - he'd got through three bottles of gas and air and was attended in the course of the evening by six parademics, six firemen and arrived at A&E with three Scout leaders in tow.

WorraLiberty · 13/01/2012 12:29

I don't sanction basically fit children going to A+E but if in doubt I would always recommend that a child is taken there if there is nowhere else to go (and NHS direct don't have sats monitors)

And sit there watching them run around the waiting room?

That's what I'm trying to get across here. I'm not saying no cold is ever going to turn into a serious emergency but if a child can tear around a waiting room with a cold, they're better off at home...at least until their GP surgery is open.

RosieBooBoo · 13/01/2012 12:31

The system is in need of a tweak, i went to the GPs last month and was told i would need to be admitted (kidney infection). The GP called the hosp to get me admitted and was told 'no beds yet send her to a&e'.
I was seen straight away and took up a cubicle whilst waiting on a bed on a ward, now i was pretty poorly (ended up stayin in hosp for almost a week) but couldnt help wonder that a&e was just a dumping ground and there was an attitude of 'they will sort it'.

thereonthestair · 13/01/2012 12:34

yes. If the parents are worried the NHS should treat the children. If that means that when the children are triaged they are not classed as an emergency they will have a long wait, and that's fine. I have never minded children running around, children bored, children in A+E at all. Yes sometimes people go to A+E incorrectly but for a child i have been told by the NHS always to take them to A+E if in doubt at all, in preference to taking them to the GP even if the GP is open. Personally I trust the paeds rather than an internet forum.

OP I am not saying that your wait was reasonable. Accross the board I think we need to pay more tax and get a better NHS but that's a whole different thread.

Melindaaa · 13/01/2012 12:35

I was there last week. I wasn't keen on going (MN made me!) as I was worried it wasn't an actual emergency but was triaged and seen immediately and out within an hour and a half.

Fab treatment.

MrsHoarder · 13/01/2012 12:35

A foot burn is something for which you are a bit stuck: it definitely merits a trip to A&E to be assessed/dressed, but is not in the same range as serious illnesses or life-threatening injuries.

I have only been to A&E three times: once taking a 15 yr old with a suspected "broken" kneecap (turned out to be severe bruising but needed an x ray) with a wait of 3 hours on a quiet day, once with a 18 year only on immune suppresents on a Sunday morning had to wait about 2 hours and were very worried she might pick up something else in the waiting room (dr had said to go to A&E with a temperature as she needed immediate antibiotics) and once myself with quite well-developed appendicitis, where the person who had taken me to hospital went to park the car and then had to ask where I'd gone I was seen that quickly (on a Friday night with a full waiting room).

These were all fairly appropriate for the conditions, the only possible exception being that the tirage nurse could have seen "immune suppressents, lets get her out of the general waiting room." in the second case. But it wasn;t possible to wait for a GP appointment and her consultant had told us to go there.

GnomeDePlume · 13/01/2012 12:37

We could follow the Dutch model and get rid of A&E altogether.

Where we lived in the Netherlands, there was no such thing as A&E. In the event of an emergency you called your doctor who came out to see you if necessary.

When we needed emergency treatment (DH had accidentally sliced of end of DS' finger). DH took DS to doctor.

Receptionist said 'that's serious you are next in'.
Doctor said 'that's too serious for me to stitch'

Doctor phoned both local hospitals to identify which to send DS to. Based on that advice DH was told where to go. DH arrived at agreed hospital and was practically met at the door by a consultant plastic surgeon with needle and thread in hand.

There are a couple of things out of all of this:

  • the Dutch are far more robust about health than the British. The doctors expect to make decisions and will send you away if they dont think you need treatment.
  • the doctors were expected to provide a high standard of out of hours cover, no palming you off onto a remote out of hours centre
eurochick · 13/01/2012 12:37

RosieBooBoo, I think that is right. People who can't get admitted through normal channels, people who cannot get GP appointments, people who don't really need to see a dr at all are all putting pressure on A&E.

notso · 13/01/2012 12:42

I do think it is too tempting for people to go to A and E when you can have to fight to get into the Doctors.
Twice I have had to accuse DH's doctors surgery of neglect just to get him an appointment within a couple of days rather than almost a couple of weeks.

BackforGood · 13/01/2012 12:43

Thing being though GnomedePlume I don't really want my GP - who has important diagnoses to be making in the day - to have been called out 3 times in the night, and be stumbling by on a sleep deprived mind. If I really need to see a Dr in the middle of the night, then I'm grateful to see any Dr, it certainly doesn't need to be my GP.
Sorry, OP, a total aside from the A&E debate Blush I just get fed up of phrases like "palmed off" onto Out of Hours Drs when it seems a pretty sensible emergency cover plan to me.

FabbyChic · 13/01/2012 12:47

MY Gp's surgery is open from 8am to 8pm 7 days a week, you can get an appointment or just sit and wait, those with appointments obviously go first though.

mousyMouse · 13/01/2012 12:50

I agree, had to wait 3 hours this week with dc (2y) with a badly cut ear.
to be fair children with breathing difficulties have been treated first but the paed a&e was clearly understaffed with only two dr there.

BUT what bugs me is, that walk in centres or gp's can't (won't?) do minor things like stitches there and then instead of sending small children off to a&e. wtaf!?!

gamerwidow · 13/01/2012 12:57

I'm another one whose GP surgery opens from 8am to 8pm 7 days a week and offers an apppointment or walk-in service. I can pretty much always guarantee I'll get an appointment for when i want and i get seen in less than an hour for emergencies.
If all towns had at least one GP surgery that offered a service like this then far less people would go to A&E "just in case".

thereinmadnesslies · 13/01/2012 12:58

My 87 year old mother in law was sent to A&E in an ambulance on Weds with a chest infection / ?pneumonia. She is still waiting in A&E, nearly 48hrs later, because there are no beds available on the wards. How can this be right?

AlpinePony · 13/01/2012 14:27

GnomeDePlume That's just not true. I have attended A&E at two dutch hospitals - once (by phone) for a mc and the second time when I took my 6 month old son in.

gordyslovesheep · 13/01/2012 14:34

I get you Worra (also confused about why the OP would go to a+e twice for a burn - but that's jusy noseyness) however when my DD2 broke both her wrist and her collar bone she was quiet happy playing with toys and stuff in the waiting room - heck she even managed to walk when asked on a leg that was broken in 2 places - she is nails!

agedknees · 13/01/2012 14:35

thereinmadenesslies - that is not right. Beds have been stealth cut in the NHS. My dm spent her last week in an assessment unit just off A&E (not a proper ward).

A bed never becomes available. And because of the 4 hour breach, patients are shunted here, there and everywhere just to make the stats look good.

FredFredGeorge · 13/01/2012 14:35

Are there no walk in centres or minor injury units near you McHappyPants ? A burn that is triaged such that you can wait is much more appropriate for one of those than A&E.

I think being triaged in 20 minutes is fine. And if it's not triaged as important, then it's fine to then wait behind everyone else who is more in need.

frumpet · 13/01/2012 14:55

What they could do is leave the critically ill to die at home /at the roadside etc and then the staff would be able to spend time with non critical patients Wink

Iggly · 13/01/2012 15:16

DS hit his head pretty badly twice in two days - phoned NHS direct. No mention of a&e Hmm

We have a local minor injuries unit - took DS there when he fell down the stairs at 11 months old. They told me they didn't treat under threes?! Madness. In the end they found a nurse who could check him over.

It is frustrating difficult to get quick medical care for children out of hours - it's ridiculous so no wonder parents go to a&e.

Lougle · 13/01/2012 16:35

I once worked for a very expensive nursing agency (Thornbury) for a week, as a care assistant. I was working on a 'medical assessment unit' AKA "A&E Overflow".

This unit was exclusively staffed by Thornbury nurses and care-assistants. Even as a care assistant, I was on £13 per hour, which at the time, was around £4 per hour more than a newly-qualified NHS Staff Nurse.

The hospital in question had so many A&E Patients that they were regularly breaching the 4 hour rule. Their solution was to create an area where the clock stopped ticking, but the patients could continue to be assessed or treated prior to proper admission or discharge.

The costs were HIDEOUSLY high, but probably cheaper to the hospital than the fines etc for breeching.

Yeahthatsnotgonnahappen · 13/01/2012 16:37

At the moment there is a massive bed crisis in a lot of hospitals, in some cases either all planned admissions cancelled and ambulances diverted or a
all emergency admissions have to be okayed by a consultant. This mrans unfortunately that although people have been seen and treatment started, you still have to wait in a&e As others have said, there is a lot happening behind the scenes and the number in the waiting room doesn't indicate how busy the staff are.

I do however think that there should be a dedicated area for kids/parents to wait rather than having to put up with drunks/people injured in fights etc. iggly surely it better that their open and honest about their skill set (I don't think I'd want a nurse to check my ds over when they've freely admitted theyre not trained to deal with paeds). As kids can get so sick so quickly, for them a&e might be the better placed for them to be assessed

Yeahthatsnotgonnahappen · 13/01/2012 16:39

Excuse that random a on a line all by itself Blush