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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be a little in love with Ben Goldacre?

999 replies

entropyglitter · 09/01/2012 12:15

Just read 'bad science' (finally) and I think I am in love.....

my favourite bit was Gillian McKeith thinking that oxygen (generated by chlorophyll) in your gut is not only plausible, but at all a good idea....

presumably this is at the same time as main lining anti-oxidants (which had been shown to increase your risk of disease rather than decrease it).

OP posts:
thunderboltsandlightning · 14/01/2012 15:19

Beach isn't ranting and she hasn't said nasty stuff about BG, SweetLily. She's raised some questions about him.

What exactly is your problem with that?

noblegiraffe · 14/01/2012 15:26

"I think he is an arrogant twit who is being used by pharma lobbies (and organisations such as Sense About Science) to influence public opinion on certain issues. "

Is quite an allegation, don't you think, Thunder?

Especially when I can't see evidence being provided to support it.

seeker · 14/01/2012 15:36

Beach- when you say nonsense is being spouted do you mean BG getting tow papers mixed up, which everyone agrees he shouldn't have done and saying that Wakefield carried out procedures on children, when he actuLly supervised and authorised procedures being carried out by his team? Or is there other nonsense being spouted that I've missed?

EndoplasmicReticulum · 14/01/2012 18:20

Hang on - where in that extract does he muddle the papers?

seeker · 14/01/2012 19:04

I don't know- it seems to be accepted on this thread that he got some dates muddled. The sort of catastrophic error that allows those that way inclined to dismiss his entire life's work. An interesting, frequently employed technique. It seemed best to defuse it by accepting the error.....

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 14/01/2012 20:58

Beachcomber, that article you linked to has the correct information about the 1998 paper in it, doesn't it? Did you mean to link to something else?

bruffin · 14/01/2012 22:32

It seems very strange to quibble about confusion over a year date, but completely ignore the fact that paper was completely misrepresented by its own author.

Or
Complain about an obscure COI ie father once wrote a paper on a similar subject but ignore that the paper had at least 2 Coi, IE funding to prove a damages claim against drug company and a single vaccine patent in the pipeline.

seeker · 15/01/2012 06:32

Smoke screening.

SweetLilyTea · 15/01/2012 10:55

A quick look around the vaccination boards left me in no doubt of the hidden agendas of certain posters on this thread I'm afraid. Very disingenuous. In fact to quote 'Blueberties' (aka JuicyFruit) on one of the MMR discussions "I'm fully signed up to the conspiracy theory now, well it's not even a theory" or something. Someone else wrote "Andrew Wakefield is a god".

Thunder - What giraffe said.

bruffin · 15/01/2012 11:49

The first rule of being an antivaccer is to claim you are not antivaccine

entropygirl · 15/01/2012 16:11

So I guess that means that the statement Im not antivaccine means nothing at all....how are us genuinely not antivaccine people supposed to identify each other??

I have a bit of an ishoo with antivaccine....because the results of it dont tend to effect the person holding the 'opinion' but instead their children and everyone elses. It is the ultminate example of why 'my parenting decisions are none of your business' is a crock of shit.

entropygirl · 15/01/2012 16:27

Would anybody else quite like a bit mn where any statement either had to be backed up with the data proving it or retracted (within say 3 posts) of the poster is ejected?

Beachcomber · 15/01/2012 17:19

For people who know about autism science, it is really clear what the incorrect info/misrepresentation is, in both the 'Never Mind the Facts' article and in the 'Hoax' extract. And it is clear why it is significant.

Again whether you agree with Wakefield et al or not, I think most of us can agree that there are logical stages and steps to the scientific method. I imagine that good old Ben knows this too because he knows so much about what makes for good or bad science that he writes a column, a blog and books on the matter.

I imagine most of us can agree that human biology is complex and that there are interactions between the different systems of the human body. This makes studying the human body quite complex.

I think we can agree that the scientific method doesn't generally allow one to say stuff like 'smoking causes cancer' without going through a logical and ordered scientific process.

You work through stages. The first stage might be to observe that you have a group who present with lung cancer and to describe the pathological manifestations of the condition. You might then observe after taking a number of patient histories that there are disproportionate numbers of people who smoke in this group. So you generate a hypothesis asking if there is a link between lung cancer and smoking. Then you design methods for testing that hypothesis. Part of all this process will be to use outside knowledge such as information on how the respiratory system works or knowledge about the composition of cigarettes and the properties of their ingredients. You will add in information about how those ingredients can affect body systems.

It may take a process of a number of years to get to a place where you can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that the balance of evidence is that smoking leads to cancer in susceptible individuals. You may have found out a fair bit along the way of what makes these individuals susceptible to this consequence of smoking.

As often happens in medicine, discoveries can be made when a condition is examined from a different angle. For example, for a long time eczema was treated as a skin condition only - now we know that it can often be a problem with the immune system which manifests as a skin condition. If we only examined the skin but never took blood tests of IgE levels (i.e. we examine the immune system), we would be missing out on a lot of information about an individual's condition. If we fail to observe that an individual's condition flares up after eating certain foods, because we don't understand the connections between the digestive system, the immune system and the skin organ, we are missing out on information which is useful for treating the patient.

Which brings me round to why it is important for commentators like Goldacre to get their facts right.

Goldacre doesn't just get a date wrong. That wouldn't be a big deal. If he talked about the 2002 Lancet Paper but then went on to describe the correct content of the paper, it wouldn't affect people's understanding terribly badly.

But that isn't what he does.

What he does is talk about the Lancet paper as though it was a paper which was written much later in the timeline of the scientific process. In doing so the readers miss some very important information. Some key information. Information, without which, it is unlikely one can have a clear understanding of, well, anything much about the affair really.

Now this is a pretty bad error for a chap like Goldacre to make. It isn't just a typo of getting a date wrong.

I said earlier that autism is complex. I also said that the Wakefield affair is complex. The 1998 Lancet paper, however, is not very complex. It is quite short, and it is easy to summarise the main observations it contains.

The 1998 Lancet paper was authored by a team from a gastroenterological department. The reason for this is because it dealt with a gastroenterological condition - a condition that the team had not seen before.

That was why they published their case series report. Because they were describing gut problems that had not previously been observed or written about. (Remember a key member of this team is Professor Walker Smith, the most experienced and eminent paediatric gastroenterologist in the UK. He agreed that this discovery was a discovery. And what do scientists do when they make a discovery? They write a paper on it.)

What was really interesting about this gut condition was that it occurred in children who had another health issue. They had behaviour issues and were somewhere on the autistic spectrum.

What was even more interesting was that the children's behavioural problems improved when their inflamed guts were treated. And that was great because the children not only suffered less suffering due to their gut pain, they also suffered less behaviour stress. Win win right?

Of course it seemed logical that being in pain would cause children to 'act out', especially if the children were non-verbal. You take away the pain and stuff like posturing or hand banging stops because those behaviours were expressions of pain.

However, there was a bonus with these children because other things improved too in some of them. Children who had regressive autism regained some of their lost skills. Nonverbal children began to speak for example.

And that was really exciting. Because with fairly simple gastroenterological treatments and diet changes, doctors were able to help severely distressed children who nobody had been able to do much for before.

These factors did not occur in all children with ASD, but they did with a significant group.

The above are the most significant things about the gastroenterological discovery written up in the 1998 Lancet paper.

And Goldacre, with his errors, puts all these things totally out of the picture.

The reason these children were examined by the Royal Free team, was because they showed signs of gut distress - they had severe constipation or diarrhoea, there was undigested food in their stools, some of them suffered faecal incontinence.

And these were all children who had suffered neither gut problems nor behavioural ones in the first 1 to 2 years of their lives.

And when taking their medical histories, their parents said that the symptoms had started following measles/MMR vaccination. (And this was true for lots of children the Royal Free saw, not just the Lancet 12.)

And under examination, aspects of their gut inflammation were concordant with symptoms of inflammation of a viral origin.

And some of the manifestations of the children's regression were similar to brain issues that measles can cause. Issues that have been observed in what gets called 'atypical measles exposure' - one example of this type of exposure is when a person contracts measles in close temporal association with certain other viruses such as mumps or chicken pox.

And this is when the Royal Free team realised that they were in deep shit.

Of course there is loads of other information that is also relevant - Wakefield had been researching viral insults and their affect on the digestive system for quite some time before he encountered the Lancet children.

He and his team knew that the next logical step was to examine the children for persistent measles infection.

Goldacre's errors, reduce all of the above to an incomprehensible 'doctor randomly tries to make out there is a link between MMR and autism on the basis of nothing more than a hypothesis conjured up out of nowhere and getting carried away by the coincidence that autism manifests around the same time children get their jabs'.

Which is a very very silly story. But people go for it.

Beachcomber · 15/01/2012 17:33

Oh and let's not forget - some of the children had been given an MMR which had to be withdrawn in several countries.

An MMR which had such an unacceptably high rate of serious adverse affects, that the manufacturer ceased production of it.

An MMR which was associated with convulsions, meningitis, encephalitis and brain damage.

And many of the children examined by the Royal Free team had shown signs such as convulsion, high pitched screaming (a symptom of encephalitis), very high fever and upset bowels after been given their MMRs.

Beachcomber · 15/01/2012 17:45

Sorry forgot this in answer to BoulevardofBrokenSleep's question;

From www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

For things as common as MMR and autism, finding 12 people with both is entirely unspectacular.

To be fair he does say this too;

Dr Andrew Wakefield is in front of the General Medical Council on charges of serious professional misconduct, his paper on 12 children with autism and bowel problems is described as ?debunked?

So he does mention the gut in passing.

So not quite as bad as when he says;

in 1998, he published a paper showing that he had found traces of the measles virus in the guts of 12 children with autism. in Never Mind The Facts.

The Media Hoax article is written quite some time after the Never Mind the Facts one and ten years after the Lancet paper was published. Perhaps Ben read the Lancet paper in between writing the two?

seeker · 15/01/2012 17:48

the other side of the argument

I realise that Brian Deer is not thought well of ( to put it mildly) in the anti MMR community, but the article is certainly worth a read. Particularly when we're in conflict of interest territory. Wakefield does not come out well. And no sign of BG.

thunderboltsandlightning · 15/01/2012 17:49

Good and informative posts Beachcomber.

It's also worth knowing that there is a "second brain" in the gut which suggests that Wakefield and colleagues might not be totally running in the wrong direction:

www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23gut.html?pagewanted=all

silverfrog · 15/01/2012 17:57

BEachcomber, I really admire you for your reasoned, balanced posts.

Especially in the face of some of the posts you have received directed at you here

As to offering up Deer as 'the other side of the argument' - you don't have to get very far into that article before the ridiculous 'errors' (ie deliberate misinformation) are apparent. but yes, I know I will be seen as 'anti-mmr' and an 'anti-vaxxer' (which of course would be why my child has had the mmr, and all childhood vaccinations (in fact, more than the standard schedule) Hmm)

I really do wish that discussions on MN could be as they were (when it were all fields round 'ere Smile) - discussions based on what is actually posted, not absolute do-or-die attempts to 'prove' anyone who holds a different opinion 'wrong'.

Nothing that anyone has posted here is even close enough to make me change my mind on what I think re: Wakefield, the gut and autism. It is patently clear (form posts where it was claimed that Wakefield held 'vaccine parties' Hmm to other posts where it is also obvious that the relevant papers probably haven't even been read, let alone understood) that most of the drivel written here has been gleaned from the media headlines (I think we can all agree that they have been unhelpful, to say the least) or from Deer articles (I don't expect anyone will agree with me when I say they are full of misinformation, but they are - easily checked, and proved lies; a bit like the Goldacre 'mistakes' in his articles)

thunderboltsandlightning · 15/01/2012 17:57

Brian Deer filed the complaint to the GMC against Andrew Wakefield. The reporter becoming the story. He's also not unbiased.

When I googled it, this article came up that claims that he was being funded by the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industries to write the Wakefield story:

www.whale.to/a/keeping.html

It would be interesting to see if that's true.

Beachcomber · 15/01/2012 17:58

I think I will wait until the result of the defamation lawsuit Wakefield has filed against Deer and the editor of the BMJ, before I decide how much weight to give to Deer's version of events.

A lawsuit which has been endorsed in writing by the parents of the Lancet 12.

bruffin · 15/01/2012 18:22

Thunder, do you realise that whale is a completely unreliable source. He was even banned from Wikipedia.
The lawsuit is nonsense. He is suing for defamation of character about an article published a year after he was struck off.
He couldn't sue in the UK because where it is easier to win this case, because it would thrown out because of abuse of process because of the way he misused the court process before.
It will probably be thrown out under the anti slapp laws in Texas anyway.

silverfrog · 15/01/2012 18:25

he is suing because the article (like so many others) was so full of inaccuracies that the only possible explanation would be deliberate defamation.

it really was a nonsense (whichever side of the Wakefield stuff you come down)

seeker · 15/01/2012 18:28

Eh?

silverfrog · 15/01/2012 18:41

read the thread, seeker; read the thread.

ElaineBenes · 15/01/2012 18:58

Wonder why Wakefield isn't suing BG, all things considered?

Very interested why Wakefield isn't suing under UK Libel law in general - isn't it far far easier to win libel suits in the UK? Has he really been barred from suing in the UK due to abuse of the system? Shock

There really is a trend here though. It appears that anyone who speaks out against Wakefield and his role in the MMR scandal is either stupid , ignorant or corrupt. It is inconceivable that experts in the field, who really do understand immunology (the much maligned immunologist Dr. Offit for example - is he corrupt or stupid?), could independently reach the opinion that Wakefield is a charlatan. The world must be a scary place if you believe in such a conspiracy.