to regret having looked at further education threads

[butterfliesandladybirds]

and feel envious of all the people who have DC getting such excellent exam results and offers of places at Oxbridge?

I got rejected in December...while I was there for interview I kept thinking, what am I doing here, why did I even apply! And gave silly answers in the interviews, froze and kept to my room, venturing out for an hour to get a comfort read from Blackwell's and skipping dinner. I've never met that many confident public schoolish type people before. That wasn't what put me off, but it just struck me. Being from the grimy industrial North and all that I probably got rejected for other reasons than just bad interview, bad grades for one thing, but maybe I'll kick myself later on for not having put the effort in...doubt it though!

Do most people trust exams then?

I had an interview - took 3 days and I hated it, apart from copping off w a postgrad and going ice skating and to the cinema with another lax interviewee. Obviously rejected.
Got a v good degree from an Oxbridge-reject uni. Have interesting, but not great-paying job. DH has degree from former poly - he's a company director and on a professional level doing much better than I am. I chose love of an academic subject; he chose business.

Oxbridge is fine, but it isn't the be all and end all, and they don't even teach some subjects. Other places may be better for what an individual wants to study.
Also if you look at their graduate students, at least 50% come from other Universities, from all over the world. In my day some of the best graduate students had come from 3rd rate Universities or even Polytechnics. Also as a graduate student I thought it was sometimes easier to have done your insecure growing up at another University before going to the Oxford Hot house.
Those Public school types BTW tend to talk rubbish, but in a very compelling and authoritative way.

folkgirl: If you earn less than £70k then the govt. will assist with money. If it's less than about £25k than your DS Will be given so much cash he won't know what to do with it all (I'm barely joking). Don't worry about 9k fees, they're basically introducing a graduate tax without calling it a graduate tax because that's unpopular. Think of it as a graduate tax and suddenly it's not as bad as "I'll be in £35k debt from a 3 year course??".

Even if he doesn't get additional financial support, he sounds like the kind of guy who could get a part time job to support himself if necessary (I really wouldn't advise this to anyone, but it is possible). If you genuinely can't afford to give him regular money when he's at uni, start saving £2 a week. By the time he hits 18 that'll be £500+interest which will cover the deposit for a rental house in yr 2, and leave a bit for emergencies he hasn't planned for. With a 1.5k student interest free overdraft he should be able to make it through the year. (repay it with a summer job, start again from zero the next year)

OP: Who cares what other people's children are getting? Encourage your child to do the best they can do and be happy. Comparing them to others (even in your head) will give them the impression that you don't accept them as they are, resulting in them being stressed and trying to prove something. Besides, oxbridge really isn't the be all and end all of universities. You can get a good university experience from most universities- thinking university is purely about the grade you get at the end of the day and the institution it's from is very silly. University is about preparing you for the real world in a safe way and learning independence. Anything else you get whilst there is a bonus. Try that perspective and suddenly all the parents pressuring their children* to get good grades and oxbridge places look a bit stupid...

*not saying everyone at oxbridge has been pressured by their parents. But a lot will have been.

The thing about Oxford (and probably Cambridge) is that the colleges vary so much in character, as do the courses, students and academic staff. So it's well-nigh impossible to predict who will find it stressful,because that depends on a load of factors. The most important stress-buster is good friends, which is not quantifiable! The students I know who find it stressful are ones who are dealing with other issues in life anyway, like sex or depression and so on. I had a schoolfriend who went to Portsmouth and found it incredibly stressful there....I think the bottom line is that I'd never discourage anyone with a reasonable chance academically from applying to Oxbridge, and like any university, go and visit, see if it fires you up and excites you or makes you want to run for the hills.

"If you want your child to do a crappy degree at a crappy university then go for it but don't be surprised if they end up working in a callcentre"

I think that is very unfair and untrue although a very common view held on Mumsnet. Most of my friends did crappy degrees at crappy universities (Business Studies at Middx, Herts and TVU for example and they have all done well. I also know a fair few people who studied English and History of Art at top Universities (including Oxbridge) and they are working in basic level admin jobs. You can't teach drive and attitude and being academically successful does not automatically mean that you go on and achieve in the workplace, it just gives you a head start.

I was very happy at Cambridge - subsequently did an MA through the OU and found that more stressful (though that was because I was working full-time as well). Not a Leader in My Field though. I was the first person in my family to go to university, so it's definitely not true that only public-school types feel comfortable there. In fact I'd advise a really bright student whose family had very little money to strain every sinew to get to Oxbridge as a lot of the colleges can afford to subsidise their undergraduates in a way that other universities just can't.

The reality is that some people aren't suited to uni full stop. Its nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with temperant.

I want my dc to take a year out so that they can get some experience of the adult world before deciding what they want to study. I want my children to be healthy and happy.

I didn't go to Oxbridge as I am not clever enough. A girl on my physics course committed suicide which I think was desperately tragic. Its strange that the sucide of someone at Oxford or Feltham Young Offenders institute is more newsworthy than a sucide at middling uni.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, OP. You don't have to be an Oxford grad to do great thing with your life.

I was offered a place at Oxford (16 years ago!) and turned it down for a London uni, as I really didn't feel like I was going to fit in at Oxford. I have never had any regrets.

Can't help thinking, if you add up all the students who graduate from Oxbridge every year, that's a whole lot of leaders, or a whole lot of fields, or something like that :)

HazieDoll, absolutely - the most 'successful' people I know (certainly financially) either didn't go to university, or did business degrees and set up their own businesses. Oxbridge is not the only show in town! :)

DH has a third from an ex poly. He is doing really well at work.

He new he had to work his butt off and his degree wasn't going to take him places. I think the uni experience is great for developing social skills and independence. However a vocational degree is often more useful than an academic degree.

Life is what you make of it.

RealLifeIsForWimps when I used the term 'impression', that impression is based on the experience I have of contemporary Oxford, with DDs 1, 2 and 3 there now and DS1 due to start next Oct. They're all state schoolers btw, and haven't had any negative stuff thrown their way, rather the opposite.

Yellowstone Glad to know its changed, or at least there are some state schools that are actively encouraging Oxbridge applications.

Also agree with the comments that it's definitely not "the only show in town" and there's a huge variety of life outcomes for Oxbridge grads. One factor is that being very intellectually bright doesn't necessarily make you interested in or especially well suited to the commercial world, often quite the opposite.

Oxbridge is not intended to provide training for future occupants of the HofP, Golden Circle and Investment banks. Some people obviously do end up there. The majority don't.

Oh, all the Oxbridge people I know who are working in the city have one thing in common; they are very very good at Maths. Actually I think if you are very very good at Maths, you have a chance to have a very well paid job in the city, regardless of University.

"If you want your child to do a crappy degree at a crappy university then go for it but don't be surprised if they end up working in a callcentre"

We all know that that is correct. Go to the women earning £100+ thread and I bet most of those over £100k went to the better universities. I think one lady's husband rents out scaffolding and there will be a few things like that but most people who go into call centres and the building trade don't earn over £100k whereas there is a higher chance if you go to a good university you are likely to get into jobs where you earn more, not that earning £100k is any kind of necessity for personal happiness of course. If it were easy to get into the best universities they wouldn't be the best.

There is a tendency for people to say if you go to very good schools or universities then you must be likely to get depressed, anorexic or be subject to terrible pressure and they say that usually because they are jealous. The children in these places tend to be perfectly happy but it makes those not able to get in to feel better. Same with higher paid jobs - threads get littered with somments that if you earn a lot you never see your chidlren and are depressed. In fact the stats show if you are stuck at home with children and no or very low income you are more likely to be depressed. You can do well, earn a lot and be happy. The two sides of things are not contra-indicative.

21YrOldMan, can you point me to the information about student support which leads you to say that "If it's less than about £25k than your DS Will be given so much cash he won't know what to do with it all (I'm barely joking)." I wasn't aware that support for students from low-income families was so generous and would be very interested to know more. Thanks!

Xenia I have no reason to be jealous with four children in and agree that people often say, with little or no justification, that the ethos of certain very good schools creates a high incidence of mental health issues. The 'territory' I was referring to when I said that the higher incidence of depression comes with the territory at Oxford was that of very high intelligence, not the university per se.

Bluestocking the Oxford Opportunity Bursaries are extremely generous, though I wouldn't go nearly so far as to say my DC don't know what to do with the money and they all still work in the holidays.

^"If you want your child to do a crappy degree at a crappy university then go for it but don't be surprised if they end up working in a callcentre"

We all know that that is correct.^

Is it? Really?! I did a 'crappy' degree at a 'crappy' university and I work in advertising. I've never worked on the phones in a call centre in my life (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course). The people from my course that I'm still in touch with did quite well - maybe not earning £100k+ but in good careers.

I hate the assumption that unless you earn a huge amount then you aren't successful in life. Money does not necessarily equal success.

Mine happens to be a family in which everyone for the last 2 generations has been to Oxbridge, as have all their partners except my lovely DH.

A couple of 'leaders in their field', but only one of the branches of the family is in any way wealthy. Otherwise we're a pretty bog-standard mix - teachers, a vicar, a lawyer or two, some creative types, people who work in charities...

It may be true that a high proportion of leaders in 'conventional' fields may historically have been Oxbridge educated (bearing in mind that in the generation just retiring, and so 'at the top' at the moment come from an age when there were far fewer universities and far fewer of the population went to university, so Oxbridge graduates were a far higher proporion of the total graduate pool - however on the other hand with the plethora of universities, recruiters faced with an oversupply of graduates may use 'university attended' as a crude first selection technique to sift vast numbers of applicants, giving students from 'recognised' universities an advantage even if they have in fact not received a better education there).

However, that does not mean that ALL, or even most, Oxbridge graduates become leaders, nor does it imply that future leaders will come from that group.

(I may have given the impression that my family is an ancient one associated with historical wealth, privilege and automatic entrance to the halls of academe - actually my parents' generation were the first from either family to ever go to university)

Many people leave school without qualifications and a few become business leaders but you certainly increase your changes in many areas if you get good exam results etc. Even today at entry level in jobs which pay well (see women who earn £100k thread) people the age of my student age children get into those better paid jobs which means they will be the ones earning more in 20 or 40 years' time too if they go to the better universities.

I don't think anyone should counsel a child against a good university on principle but do tell them that if they cannot get into one there are plenty of other ways to skin a cat and indeed your particular cat might well be being a housewife for life or earning £10k a year or becoming a nun or all kinds of things which are nothing to do with having enough money to support your chidlren well.

Bluestocking...my son went up to a top University last September. Not Oxbridge. He is just about the only non-public school, non-Southern, person on his course. I earn a great deal less than £25K!

He did get a small non-repayable grant due to us being poor! However, he has not got so much money he doesn't know what to do with it! There were bursaries for which he competed,but sadly did not get.

He would not entertain applying for Oxbridge as his perception was of a place full of public school 'toffs', and yet he has ended up at exactly such a place! I think it's probably due to the subject he is studying, which is academic and vocational.

Luckily he is very tight with his cash, and has saved a fair bit over the years of birthday money, part-time jobs etc, and so has a cushion. He is not working now as he finds the course so time consuming that it's not possible for him. And of course the others on his course have very well off parents to support them.

His school have been very supportive over the years, especially so in the early years when he was disruptive and difficult.

I have also expended a lot of energy and stress to get him where his is now. So yes, I did 'push' him. But only to fulfil his own potential, not my expectations. His sister is at a local college doing a business foundation degree while working. It is essential to encourage your child within their own abilities and temperaments.

And being from a poor family should not dissuade DCs from going to University if that is what they want, and suits them.

Going to a top ranked university certainly isn't the most important thing in life and doesn't guarantee you future success. It isn't right for all students and nobody should feel inadequete about where they study, or if they do any further study at all. Hourses for courses.

But, I don't think it can be denied that a good degree from a good university does improve your chances of financial and/or career success. Not guarantee but improve.

I also wonder how many people who say that they wouldn't want their children any near Oxbridge and that it's a hothouse of all things self destructive etc actually have children with the ability to go or have that ability themselves. It sometimes seems that it's the people to whom Oxbridge is not an option that are the most obsessed with it. To many of the students and parents who go there, it's just a good uni.

I doubt that these supposed high levels of eating disorders, self harm and suicide are intrinsically linked to any one university but more to the personality type that gets into them. I went to Durham, famous for taking Oxbridge rejects. I am also anorexic and was a self harmer. But my university experience didn't make me like that, I have been like that since I was 11 or 12 years old. I was a perfectionistic, hardworking teenager who cared hugely about what other people expected of me and put a massive amount of pressure on myself to do everything and excel in everything. Those characteristics are both the reason I got into a good uni AND the reason that I developed the problems that I did. The problems were not the fault of the university.

Indeed in some ways it's easier now - you pay nothing at all in terms of tuition fees until your earnings exceed £25k or whatever it is and then it's effective a 9% tax or whatever. My son instead (who has graduated) paid £3k fees a year. the new system in some ways is easier not harder for students although the level of debt psychologically is one some people may not want to carry around. Plenty live at home so all they need is money for fares and books and going out. It doesn't have to be massively expensive.

Also if they never plan to earn more than £20k a year eg want to be artists or housewives or study the bible for life or something tehn they never pay a penny of fees. In a sense the new system rewards the idle doing degrees which will earn them no money.

But Xenia.....education should be an end in itself, not just a means to earn pots of money.

Education, including degrees, is about so much more than money. Are you idle if you study a subject which will never earn you any money?