to continue to refuse to pay this parking fine?

[bushymcbush]

I will try to keep this brief.

In September, I took my dd swimming on a Sunday morning at a council run swimming pool. I have done this a few times and I believed that the attached carpark, which is pay and display, was free on Sundays. It was for years and years. (That's one of the reasons why I go swimming on Sundays, to keep costs to a minimum.)

I glanced at the notice board when we arrived and saw, as expected the heading 'Charges Mon - Sat' with a list of charges underneath. Satisfied, I took my dd into the swimming baths.

On our return I found a fixed penalty notice on my car. I went over to the notice board and found at the bottom of the board, an added on notice detailing Aunday charges. This had been previously hidden from view by cars parked right next to the board.

I write to the council. I told them I couldn't afford the fine without going into debt and made what they call 'representations' - basically my reasons for not paying (as detailed above). They wrote back, rejecting my representations and doubled the fine.

I wrote again, sending £1 (the amount a ticket would have cost that day) and pleading our inability to pay without going into debt, which I'm not prepared to do as I feel I have been treated unfairly.

They returned my £1 and increased the fine by another 50%.

I wrote again, telling them how unfair I thought they were being.

I received a letter from them today, saying that as a 'goodwill gesture' they would decrease the fine to the previous amount (still double the original) if I paid it in full. If I'm having financial difficulties I can pay £10 pw but the amount will not be reduced if I pay this way - it would stand at 3x the original amount.

What do I do now? Do I keep fighting or give up and go into debt? Am I in the wrong? I'm perfectly prepared to accept the judgement of the MN jury on this one.

Having watched that Bailiff TV program where people where having to pay something like £500 after not paying a parking fine, I would say just pay up.

This is the council you are dealing with, not a company who is hoping for your return custom.

Yes it is and and bloody frustrating, but I don't think you'll win this one.

Do you have a chance to present your case in front of a magistrate? I'd go for that, if I had the option. If you couldn't see the new charges, and the notice wasn't prominently displayed, it wasn't your fault.

Sounds like you should pay. Your only argument can be that the sign was obscured by cars, but presumably this wouldn't have been the case if you'd got out of the car to check it?

You have my sympathy on the getting into debt part, but I guess they haven't really got any way of making allowances for this.

It's annoying, but sadly you are in the wrong. The sign displays the charges and you didn't pay. I can see why you feel aggrieved though!
I think if I were you, I would apologise for the bluster, say it was a genuine oversight on your part and you would be willing to pay the fine but due to hardship can you pay by stages and is there any chance at all that they would be so kind as to reduce it to the amount of the original fine? I would plead and be as nice as possible.
My DP got a ticket recently because he assumed the charges were as they had been the last time he'd used the car park and they had gone up - the new charges were on the sign, he just didn't read it.

I say fight it, nothing to lose. You have a good defence IMHO have a look here, it may help

The sign was there. When you checked more carefully, you could see that it was right there. I think that they will argue that the onus is on you to carefully read the entire notice. I doubt they'll back down so you may have to say to them to take you to court over it, and show the judge the pictures and show how if a car is parked there, you can't see the notice, see if they agree with you.

The Council should have explained to you that you can go to independent appeal. If you do this, you should stress that the notice was misleading because it implied that charges only applied Mon-Sat upon a first and reasonable reading.

Did the Council's letter not mention the appeal process?

Sorry but the fact that cars were blocking your view of the sign saying you had to pay, I cannot see that as a valid reason to appeal. Why can't you just pay the fine? I cannot see where you have been treated unfairly, on what you have written.

In your position, I would make a payment but continue to fight it. Get back to the sign and photograph it so that you can back up what you're saying. If possible, try to photograph it showing the additional notice being obscured by a car.

If it went to court, I think you'd have a very good chance of having the fine waived as they have to make charges clear (and leaving a tiny tacked on bit saying charges now apply on Sundays on to a big notice board that still says charges apply mon-sat is not being clear).

My local library has a solicitor visit once a week who anyone can see free of charge. If your local library offers the same, it may be worth a visit. Sometimes, a well-written, legal-sounding letter (as opposed to a nice appeal from a lay-person) can do the trick all by itself.

However, it could take time to fight, during which charges will keep accruing, and if you do lose, it would cost more.

Good luck.

Tbh it should have been fought properly from the start, (they do have a public duty regarding misleading signage) but it hasn't, so you're now in trouble.

It's worth looking to see if the council is using an outside contractor and just who is handling your representations, because it may not be the council, and the enforcement of these fines rarely is.

They can?t just double the fine as a result of refusing your representations, and you should go to the parking adjudicator over that, if it?s exactly what?s happened. (which may well get the whole thing withdrawn)

You can also demand to go before the adjudicator over the sign but you may be out of time for doing that.

They are entitled to say we rejected your representations (which is when you go to the adjudicator, which freezes it) and if you don?t pay within x time (often short) it doubles, which I suspect is what?s happened.

If that?s the case the only sensible thing to do is first plead hardship and beg for it to be returned to the original amount, or/then pay up and then try waging war to get your money back. (hard but not impossible) If you just don?t pay while arguing it becomes a battle of nerves and good possibility of ending with a huge fine, CCJ and bailiffs.

At the point you get to see a magistrate it's too late, they can't deal with the original fine or it's fairness, only means testing how you will pay the by now massively increased amount.

It tends to be very ?all or nothing? and you should only fight without paying first, if you can afford to lose. Sorry.

It sounds really rotten to me. When you appealed didn't they say if you lost that you would just pay the original fine.

I got a ticket, wrote to appeal and then paid the original fine. they shouldn't double it if you appealed.

Shame you couldn't have taken a photo of the cars blocking the sign.

Really the council should have put a notice up stating that new parking charges were starting from a certain date so you were aware. It sounds like they were trying to trap people on purpose.

I'd fight it personally. If the sign was obscured by another car you were unaware that charges apply. Unjustified parking fines really annoy me. I got fined in a shop car park for once for being a couple of minutes over the 2 hr limit. I thought I had made it back just in time. However, they had timed it from when I entered the car park to when I left (and had timed photos of this), not the time I was parked. As it took me a few minutes to find a space and park I had ended up over the 2 hrs. I wish I had fought it, but I was too busy at work at the time. I now just boycott that shop. They have lost way more than the amount of the fine as a result.

I don't understand how the sign could be obscured by another car? Unless that car was parked in the wrong place.

A couple of the posts above sound very sensible, OP, (LInerunner and Just getting on); I have a question: if you fight it and it ends up in court, and your financial situation is not good, will they ask you to pay it in tiny amounts, which may suit you better (if you lose, that is)? If so, there are some good grounds mentioned here which could make it worth your fighting it. Very very annoying though, and I sympathise with your position.

Outside work they have on street parking which was always free on a Sunday and after 6pm but this has now changed. As far as im concerned you stand in front of the machine and read the whole lot of information before you proceed to park there.

JustGettingOn has the correct term, I think - adjudicator. It's a free -you-might-as-well form of independent appeal. I think a lot of people do succeed at this stage.

Pay up IMO

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Unfortunately, I didn't take up the opportunity to appeal to the independent adjudicator when I was given that opportunity back in November - the council did inform me of this right when they rejected my representations but I just felt overfaced by the idea of yet more official proceedings and thought I could deal directly with the council over this. I assumed that ultimately these decisions are made by real actual people who happen to work in council offices, and thought they would be sympathetic.

Could kick myself for not appealing to the adjudicator at the time. The way the council represented it was really off-putting - sounded very complex and official.

I guess I'm going to have to pay it aren't I?

Adversecamber - are you saying the parking was free but you had to pay a fine for not having a free ticket? Just at that one.

I really do have no chance on my case do I? I hate backing down to official bullying. Plus I really cannot afford it.

I had a similar (ish) run in with a local council park. I used to park there once a week, for point of argument (it was years ago so can't remember the correct amounts) it was 90p for 3 hours but £1.20 for all day, I wanted all day (it was pouring with rain) so quickly put in coins that I thought amounted to £1.20. Got back at end of day to a )fine - in my hurry I had put in a 5p coin thinking it was a 10p so had paid £1.15 - 5 p short.

I sent a begging letter of appeal saying this was clearly an error on my part (as I could have just put 90p in if I didn't want all day ), but also paid the fine whilst appealing to stop it doubling. They wrote back - didn't doubt for a minute that it was a genuine error - however I had still not paid the correct amount so the original fine was upheld.

I cursed and (on principle!) refused to park there again (ok we actually moved house so didn't need to!) but ultimately they were correct - it was a genuine mistake but I had still not paid the correct amount, and therefore the fine was correct!

Bushy, from the info in your last post, yes pay, and swiftly, they?ve actually given you a genuine goodwill gesture by dropping part of it even though you didn't go to appeal, but the clock's still ticking.

Once it gets past a certain point the first you'll know it's got there, is when bailiffs write to you and charge you for that privilege too. People assume they?ll get a day in court were they can argue, before bailiffs get involved, they don?t.
Go into debt, it will actually do you less damage and allow you at least to be in control of it, and the rates won?t be worse.

For future knowledge, councils often do try and put things in a way that scares people from going to the adjudicator and if you do put your case to them, the amount of paperwork council?s respond with is eye opening, but once you stare it all in the eye, it?s just writing a letter and getting a yes, or a no.

Oh what a nightmare, it's a frigging nightmare when you're strapped for cash and this sort of thing comes up.

Unfortunately you won't be able to fightit after you pay as by paying you've admitted liability for the "offence" (not really an offence if you know what I mean!)

I think you'd have a very good chance of getting off this due to the way the charges were displayed- if I've read it correctly it was some kind of hastily added temporary notice? They do have responsibilities to meet around this and chances are quite high they've not followed. Correct procedure. Unfortunatly you don't really have any avenue now to appeal.

Baliffs only deal with undisputed debts, but unfortunately not being able to afford it isn't a dispute. I'm sorry to keep reminding you of things you couldve done, but I think you have to suck it up whilst it's back at the reduced rate.

You didn't bother to appeal? Just pay it, right now, or it'll get even more "complex and official" - and expensive!