To think Cameron did the right thing saying no in the latest EU vote as that he should go even further and get us out of the EU altogether?!

[runningwilde]

I have always been a Euro sceptic, never liked the idea of the Euro and think that places like Norway and Sweden were very sensible staying out of the EU. Although, of course, there are some very good arguments for being in the EU, I can't help but think we are better off out of it?

Would love to hear what others think about this. Aibu to think like this? Agree or disagree?!

Well so be it then!

If the 'demos' doesn't want it, then it doesn't want it. How can you possibly argue with that in a democracy?

pretendhousewife wrote:

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I say we will never join if it is left up to the 'demos'
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We already joined - in 1973, without any referendum and without any previous manifesto statement from Heath's Tories.

So - to loosely quote Brecht - if the people have failed the government maybe the government should dismiss the people and appoint a different one ...

Well if the 'demos' really wanted out of Europe they would use their vote in elections to democratically vote for UKIP. But they choose not to. It's democracy.

When people vote in general elections, there are more policies to consider than membership of Europe, which is the primary concern of UKIP. So it isn't fair to say that if people wanted out, they would have voted for UKIP.

Even if you accept the view that the MEPs are democratically elected, it still means that MEPs chosen in other European countries are deciding what happens here. They haven't been elected here, so are not the elected representatives of the British people.

Well, I for one, feel more european than italian, iyswim...
In all these years of a goverment that was seriously rubbish, I kind of felt sheltered by the fact that Italy is part of the EU.

YANBU

AT ALL

Yeah, we wouldn't want to be isolated like those failing economies such as China, the USA, Brazil ....

UKIP are not a single issue party. I think their name/branding is a problem for them. They have many sound policies such as grammar schools and flat rate income tax

I used to work in Brussels. It really is a joke. Even interns have free travel and food. It's astounding how much money you can make by abusing the system, were you so inclined.

elected MEPs have very little power. Unelected bureaucrats, the Commission do.

I agree with ApocalypseToastie!

Alas this whole anti-Europe issue, as our canny leaders well know - speaks to unthinking jingoism, vague folk memories of WW2 and THAT opening graphic from Dad's Army - all fed and fanned into shameful nonsense by the right wing popular press who take advantage of the considerable ignorance of the issues, personalities, facts of the whole complex debate. I think this thread, with a few notable excceptions on either side of the euro-fence - is agood example.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to be isolated like those failing economies such as China, the USA, Brazil ....

They have a number of advantages we don't, however......like size - they are trading blocs in their own right.

Niceguy that's exactly why it IS crazy to put this to a referendum.

I understand the sentiment but that unfortunately is how democracy works. I have a vote and I use it based on the party I feel has the best policies. My exGF has exactly the same vote and she votes based on the best looking leader. Her vote is the same value as mine

Gaaah!
Teachers'
Pupils'

I think many Europeans are sick and tired of having the UK in the EU. At the same time it seems that many Brits are sick and tired of the EU. So, it maybe best to part ways. Brits happy, rest of EU happy.

A friend of ours (a junior ambassador to the EU) described meetings as like herding cats and very frustrating. This person also disliked intensely the tactics used by the French when they held the rotating Presidency to try and railroad through their agenda.

I have to say that I agree with TBM - Brussels is a gravy train for the EU fonctionnaires.

Really? " I used to work in Brussels. It really is a joke. Even interns have free travel and food. It's astounding how much money you can make by abusing the system, were you so inclined. "

Funny, I know plenty of interns in the institutions. They get paid a monthly allowance. They don't get free food - they have to pay in the cafeteria just like everyone else, and they don't get free travel, unless it's for work (i.e. to travel to Strasbourg). MEP's assistants also, in my 10 years of experience of living here, don't get free food and travel, and some of them don't even get paid. I worked for a Lib Dem MEP during my uni studies and didn't get paid at all.

So, please, don't come on here spouting a whole load of rubbish about things you don't really know about. Apart from anything else, the rules for allowances and travel expenses have been tightened up enormously in the last few years.
But, of course, the UK has shown itself to be so perfect in this area in recent months hasn't it?

amyboo: to be fair, that poster did not say when she worked in Brussels. If it was before the tightening up of the rules, then she posted the exact truth which she knew about from direct experience. I think you are being unkind and excessively strident.

scaryteacher: could you explain what you mean by "junior ambassador"? The term Ambassador isn't used in British representation to the EU, where instead there is a Permanent Representative.

This person was a junior ambassador to the EU and sat on various committees including the PSC. I did not say that this person was a Brit, and yes, I am well aware of how UKREP is structured; hard not to really, given dh's line of work.

In the short term, Call Me Dave has done a good thing and the City will get more business from the Eurozone; I'm not so sure whether he's acted in Britain's best interest in the longer term though...

Interesting that some of the other 26 are now having second thoughts about the deal...

4c4good wrote:

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Alas this whole anti-Europe issue, as our canny leaders well know - speaks to unthinking jingoism, vague folk memories of WW2 and THAT opening graphic from Dad's Army - all fed and fanned into shameful nonsense by the right wing popular press who take advantage of the considerable ignorance of the issues, personalities, facts of the whole complex debate. I think this thread, with a few notable excceptions on either side of the euro-fence - is agood example
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There are two examples here of slurs commonly used against anyone who questions the wonderfulness of the EU or dares to suggest that Britain would be better off out:

1. The conflation of anti-EUism with anti-Europeanism or even with donwnight xenophobia.

The EU is a political project. Europe is a continent of widely varying cultures, languages and peoples. Criticism or rejection of the Project does not imply antipathy to the continent or the peoples.

I don't think that the UK should apply to join the USA but that doesn't make me anti-American.

Personally I would regard myself as a Europhile of the "Vive la difference" persuasion.

1. The identification of anti-EU sentiment with being a loony right winger.

It's nothing to do with right or left wing. In fact the UK government which had the nature of the Project best sussed out was also arguably the most left wing; namely the post-war Attlee government. Some if the most articulate proponents of the case against the EU were people in this government or who were associated with it: Bevin, Gaitskell, Douglas Jay, Peter Shore, with the last surviving member of that generation being Tony Benn.

Back in the early post-war years they took one look at the emerging European Coal and Steel Community, realised exactly what it was all about, and would have nothing to do with it - quite rightly.