To think that being Tory doesn't make you thick?

[RainbowSheep]

Ok, my family are all very liberal (I mean my parents, aunts & uncles, who incidently have all had lots of money & opportunities throughout their lives). Their parents (who were poor working class) were more conservative as are me and my brother, who are both pretty poor. We recently had a family get together where I was told by my uncle (university lecturer) that Tories were unitelligent and I was beginning to sound like an idiot for having conservative views... I don't think I am particularly right wing.

...as opposed to a Greek who's been evading tax their whole working life?

what's your point?

Endless if getting the country solvent in 5 years' time means robbing whole swathes of genuinely disabled and ill individuals of the support that makes their lives worth living then yes, I'd question the intelligence of that. Especially because the books could still be balanced, just not at breakneck speed.

As for Greece - their rate of tax avoidance is very much an issue, the amounts the Greek state has missed out on runs into many billions. Greek governments on both sides of the political spectrum have neglected to tackle this.

What pointy said. No point cutting the relatively small amount paid out in essential benefits while the rich and middle classes evade paying in.

Money spent in the right places avoids larger costs later.

it doesn't make you "thick", it does however make you selfish and greedy. You're ok so screw everyone else type thing. But each to their own.

"Selfish and greedy", "screw everyone else" - this is the sort of visceral crap I was referring to earlier. Nobody who votes tory wants people to starve. But there is a view that a section of the population does take state support for granted. It is not a desire to deny those who truly need help, on a temporary or long term basis, of whom there will always be many.
Why can't you understand that it is a difference of opinion as to how to address these issues, and not a desire to hurt others?
Why can't you understand that it can be aggrieving to see well over half of what you earn going to the taxman, with it not appearing to make any difference to anything? While the super rich structure round tax, and live in Monaco and get off scot free?
I don't understand why the language always has to be so emotive. I don't call left wingers evil bastards out to screw me - I just disagree with their ideologies and the way they go about things.

My favourite right-winger is Kingsley Amis. Whenever I read him, be it his letters, his novels or his wonderful articles about all aspects of alcohol, he makes me laugh. He was damn clever and very funny indeed. He has also been dead since 1995, which helps.

Salme's favourite Tories:

1. Kingsley Amis.
2. Er...

Bollinger bolshevik bum,

Salme

So, Kate Frothers, on your calculations, we have paid approximately £250,000 in tax for the last few years. I hadn't thought about the exact numbers before. From our net income we also fund Private Health Insurance and Education so aren't big users of many state initiatives. Have you considered the fact that if tax rates were to increase we might not actually stay in the UK (DH could operate from overseas relatively easily) and the £250,000 we usually contribute would be lost.

The UK economy is dependent on innovators, and those with profound professional expertise to recover in order to allow growth to take place. Only with growth will overall taxation increase and if the rates are made more punitive this can't possibly happen and those at the bottom will suffer far more than they need to.

Well as long as you're ok MarriedIn that's the main thing

Also you use loads of state funded or subsidised facilities. The streets you walk on, the police who keep the peace, the ambulance that would take you to a state run hospital if you needed it, the GP you go to when your chikdren are sick, the university educations that enable you to earn what you do, the state funded education that qualified and regulates your private healthcare professionals and private school teachers... and probably the bank you keep your money in.

That's just for a start.

We've also paid hundreds of thousands in tax in my household too. I don't begrudge a penny of it. I am proud we have a welfare state. I'm also grateful. So, so grateful.

No, but being thick often makes you a tory. It depends really whether you want to destroy the economy and create huge social inequality. If you do want to do that, then obviously it's logically consistent to be a tory, thus shows intelligence. If, on the other hand, you're voting for them expecting that they are going to do anything useful despite the years of evidence to the contrary, then you are either thick or have a very specific political learning disability.

"Nobody who votes tory wants people to starve."

Er, have you read the daily mail comment sections ever? Some of them do want exactly that. Some of them also want to e.g. take children from single mothers for forcible adoption. By all means, if you're a tory who's going to make sure people have (immediately available, local) jobs to go to before withdrawing state support, then continue to make a fair argument- if not then actually you don't mind if people do starve/freeze, because that's what happens if people have no income.

When I say I disagree with the Conservatives, I am not talking about tackling either benefit fraud or benefit dependency.

I don't think Tory voters are evil. But Tory policies on many things just don't stack up.

One example is the frequently-proposed 'married person's tax allowance'. Either this allowance will be sizeable, in which case it is state economic discrimination on moral grounds, or it will be small, in which case it is a pointless gesture made on moral grounds. Either way, you can't make marriages successful through bribery. Tories need to accept the world has moved on, people don't care as much about marriage anymore. Get over it.

Similarly, as I referred to upthread, increased use of custodial sentences (Ken Clarke breaks the mold here) - they do not act as a deterrent, they push people further into criminality, they cost the taxpayer a huge amount. But time after time Conservatives call for them. Why? Because they want to be seen to be be tough on criminals, which is a futile emotional/moral response. Even though the policy benefits no one, they can't help themselves reaching for the Victorian crime prevention manual.

That's the sort of thing that drives me crazy. The policies are stuck in a time warp, it's like the whole party has been lapped by the rest of the world.

The Conservative's view of Britain in the world is based on historical myth, not hard economic/political facts. Their view of marriage, the family, the school curriculum, health inequality, social deprivation, human and social behaviour - they're all behind the times.

That's the nature of Tories - the world's moving forwards while they're looking backwards.

I don't think that's what I was saying at all Kate Frothers.

All of the things you mention are funded by our taxes and I really don't think we are very heavily subsidised. We use a private GP, I didn't go to university.

I don't believe I have said I begrudge paying taxes and if you read my post further up thread you will see that that I have said that I value a society where there is a safety net for those who need it because due to illness or genuine unemployment they are unable to work.

What I have said is that society has to strike a careful balance so that it does not lose many opportunities to raise tax. I think giving half one's earnings to taxation is quite enough but I don't resent doing so. I do, however, expect it to be spent sensibly.

I think some Tories are ignorant as illustrated by previous posts.

Of course ignorance crosses all political spectrums and classes but to spout off about stuff you don't understand from your ivory tower and position of "I'm all right jack", well, that is a bit thick.

Where did I say "'I'm alright Jack?".

I have looked at an argument from an objective perspective. What do you not understand about the fact that if taxes in the UK become punitive, as they did in the 1970's, many people and companies will leave and taxable revenues will decrease. If this happens, please explain how this will benefit those who need a safety net.

What pointy said. No point cutting the relatively small amount paid out in essential benefits while the rich and middle classes evade paying in.

Do The Rich and The Middle Class do this? My god, I must be doing something wrong ( along with every single rich and middle class friend) because we always pay every penny!

married I know of two companies personally looking at going offshore because of the tax burden as it now stands.

In Greece Harry. We were talking about in Greece.

KateFrothers needs some basic reading comprehension lessons by the looks of her latest responses.

What a charming post, proudfoot.

Oh really Proudfoot? Do enlighten me please

i like allohora

Clearly voting tory/labour/libdem doesn't make you thick.

The problem here is that none of the parties really want to tell the general public the truth: that globalization, technology and demographics have rendered the post WWII nation state, with a cradle to grave benefit and pensions system, unsustainable, unaffordable and thus obsolete.

Every western democracy is suffering from the same problems: Japan first, now the US, Europe and UK. An ageing population (the baby boomers) makes pensions and benefits increasingly expensive. Emerging countries share of global GDP will rise from 33% to 66% in the next 20 years. China is producing 8 million (cheap) graduates even this year, not good for Westerns graduates employment prospects.

So some governments hide the problem by getting into more and more debt until their economy collapses, other try to tackle to problem but find their popularity falls instead and they get voted out.

It doesn't matter though, the end result is the same: in a globalized world our economies will converge with the emerging economies. As they get richer, we will get poorer. Lower standards of living, much higher unemployment, and the same wide disparity of incomes that are observed in their countries.

Just read the title, but surely it's the other way around?