To think that being Tory doesn't make you thick?

[RainbowSheep]

Ok, my family are all very liberal (I mean my parents, aunts & uncles, who incidently have all had lots of money & opportunities throughout their lives). Their parents (who were poor working class) were more conservative as are me and my brother, who are both pretty poor. We recently had a family get together where I was told by my uncle (university lecturer) that Tories were unitelligent and I was beginning to sound like an idiot for having conservative views... I don't think I am particularly right wing.

Ive never understood why tax credits get slagged off by right wingers. After all its what subsidises the low wages that some of these employers pay. When this Gov got in last year i remember DH saying that the reason they got in (at least by enough votes to get a coalition) is because some snobbier working class people like to believe they are middle class and so voted accordingly.

Ah, yes carer - that brings me to my point - Tax Credits are a business subsidy that allow employers to pay their employees LESS than they need to survive on. The Government either has the option of raising NMW to a level where people working FT on NMW can afford to pay for EVERYTHING without a top-up, even in the SE, OR of paying Tax Credits to subsidise the eployer paying a lower amount than that.

Tax Credits = Business Subsidy, pure and simple.

Actually SMC that thinking in your post of 17:18 is not just the preserve of right-wingers. I would prefer that. It seems extremely wasteful to do it the current way.

But then I've always worked in private sector so I'm pretty hot on getting value for money.

But in order to couteract the loss of Tax Credits - the Income Tax threshold would have to be raised to a level that the Tories will never do. It would need to be raised to around £17K pa to be worthwhile, and to stop people from starving if Tax Credits were abolished, rather than being replaced by UC (sort of ).

The best figure the Tory Party has come up with forn raising the Income Tax threshold to is £10k pa. Oh, of course anyone can survive on £10K pa. I'd like to see people try...

HuntyCat if my calculations are correct a person working 7 hours per day, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year on £6.08/hr miinimum wage would earn £10,214.

In essence, raising the personal allowance to £10k and indexing for inflation would take everyone on minimum wage out of tax entirely.

That would be a very good start surely?

It would be start MoreBeta but realistically £10,000 is not enough for a family to live on. It still needs topping up somewhere, so all the savings of having the higher tax rate is negated.

However, if there are two parents a £10,000 threshold makes sense, but that doesn't help lone parents. Unless lone parents got a tax threshold of £20,000.

And then we get into the Tory idea of a married persons tax break where a couple can share the tax allowance.

I'm not sure what I think about that so I'm interested in opinions.

higher tax rate? higher nil rate band

I have always disagreed with the idea of Tax Credits as it is a subsidy to employers and forcing people on benefits to work for less the NMW is also equally bad.

kate - my personal view has always been that each adult person in a family should get a tax allowance of £10k and each child £5k and that should be transferable between family members.

A 2 adult 2 child family could have a tax free income of £30k and I THINK that would address much of what HuntyCat is saying about NMW not being enough for a family to live on.

I would support removal of Tax Credits, Child Benefit and the many allowances and tax incentives that only very rich people can access to pay for that.

But morebeta - what about a LONE PARENT family with 2 dc? They will still need the same size house, the same utility bills, HIGHER childcare bills (as no other parent to look after the dc), yet by your calculations, they would only have a tax free income of £20K.

And NONE of that allows for the fact that a FT minimum wage job DOES NOT COVER YOUR ESSENTIAL OUTGOINGS.

Just because that £10K would be tax-free, it doesn't mean that it will stretch to cover your rent, council tax, childcare, utilities, travel to work, clothing and food, does it?!

Unless you are aware of some way of making £10K stretch further than I can? My 2-bed, mid terrace HA house costs £6,259pa. Which out of a £10K income leaves just £3,741pa for everything else. My Council Tax is another £1,332pa. Leaving £2,409pa. My electric bill is around £1,000pa. Which leaves £1,409pa. My Gas bill is around £400pa. Leaving £1,009pa. My water bill is £350pa. Leaving £659pa.

So I am left with £659pa to: Pay for childcare. Pay for travel to work. Pay for clothing. And, oh yes - pay for food too!

And THAT is why £10k is NOT enough to live off without State top-ups.

I don't understand the carping at the current Govt about tax credits. It was a Labour idea!
Their introduction of it was appalling. Originally it was administered by employers (for no recompense, I might add) so the employers could see, loud and clear, every payday how much the employees were getting. Where's the incentive for an employer to pay a proper wage when he can see the evidence before his very eyes that every pound less that he pays is picked up instead by the taxpayer. It was a ludicrous system (not to mention the overpayments fiasco).
I go to various tax-planning lectures. I knew that the world had gone mad when, instead of talking to directors about IHT or CGT, they started talking about directors arranging their affairs to make sure that they could claim tax credits.

well said hunty

And even if there is a tax-free level of £20 or £30K for that family - it DOESN'T mean that they can EARN £20-£30k, does it? Not unless you ALSO state that minimum wage has to rise to pay between £20-£30K as WELL as raising the level of tax-free income.

It is all very well saying that someone isn't going to be taxed on any income UP TO £20-£30k, but if they are only earning £10k - then that's not going to be much consolation for the fact that they CAN'T EAT, is it?

I dont see why transport to work costs cant be subsidised/free for lone parents/ low paid workers.

Have you any idea how much THAT would cost the Government though, stuffedaubergine? I know that to travel by bus in my town, to get a daily/weekly bus ticket, is the equivalent of £3.50 a day now.

Which, if you work on 5 days a week - works out to a cost of £910/year. And it's NOT just transport to work - if you have children, you have to get THEM to childcare too, and in my town, you pay bus fare for any child over 5yo. Not everywhere in the UK is like London, where dc go free!

And that still doesn't solve the fact of actually PAYING for the childcare and clothes and FOOD. Which is a pretty basic human NEED.

To cover childcare, clothes and food, out of the £659 a YEAR that is left after paying the bare essentials, you are left with just £12.67 a WEEK.

That is £12.67 a WEEK to cover childcare, travel to work, clothes and FOOD.

I'd like to see you live off that, MoreBeta!!

I don't think MoreBeta is being unreasonable. I think there is some sense in the theory but obviously in reality there is a problem with the numbers.

Less administration, easier access and smoother claims has got to be good?

I do have concerns about employers knowing everything about you via your tax code. Frankly if I want my employer to know I'm married or have children I'll tell them. Not the government (unless I'm a NRP parent who's refused to pay for my own children in which case I don't deserve anonymity).

"Broadly speaking, the sort of society I want to see is not different, in any material respect, from that which my left-wing friends want to see. We disagree on methods, not outcomes. I don't see the need for vilification on either side."

this is exactly the point. all that really needs saying on this thread.

vanishes in puff of own logic

I get that MoreBeta isn't being unreasonable, but I just feel that anyone that thinks that it is possible to even pay for the BASICS to survive out of £10k, needs more than a little reality check - and maybe a year of trying to do just that, without any state top-ups, before they make sweeping statements of benevolence in letting people have £20-£30kpa tax-free, when a) A lot of people can't earn that working FT, and b) The £10k that a lot of people earn for FT work, does NOT cover the minimum essentials.

Because it just isn't possible.

I don't that is what he was saying. I may be wrong. I expect he'll be along in a bit to clarify.

So how do you right-wing people propose that every single person earning minimum wage 'betters themselves' then?

If you are only earning £10k - you can't afford to pay to gain extra qualifications. If your PARENTS only earn £10k - then there is NO WAY you are even going to consider taking on £27k worth of debt to go to Uni, when you see that it is nearly 3 times what your parents earn.

If someone has a disabled child, how do you propose they better their situation? If someone is disabled themselves, how do you suggest they better their situation? If someone's partner leaves them, how do you propose they better their situation? If someone leaves their husband because their husband is cheating on them, how do you propose they better their situation?

How about, like me, if someone has a child diagnosed with a disability, THEN gets diagnosed with a disability that bars them from doing their high-paid profession BY LAW, then has another child diagnosed with a disability, and THEN has their partner made redundant, all within 6 weeks, betters themselves?!

It's not always black and white in the real world - and that is where I feel that the majority of Tories fall down in the empathy stakes, because the real world is full of shades of grey.

HuntyCat - I assumed you would still be eligible for full Housing Benefit as a single parent earning just £10250/year. So you should add that to your income calculation.

Also, in my proposed world people on NMW would not pay tax so you would pay council tax either.

TYPO: ...would not pay council tax either.