to think that the classic fairy tales ate deeply deeply disturbing?

[bejeezus]

And give terrible messages to little girls?

I give you

Sleeping Beauty Surely a strange man who kisses you whilst you are sleeping needs reporting to the police not marrying, regardless of his social status?

Beauty and the Beast should include a page explaining the 'Stockholm Syndrome'?

Rumplestiltskin Where to start?! A father traffickers his daughter to a man who imprisons her and threatens her with death if she fails to turn his hay into gold. A 'friend' helps her out and she is overjoyed to ne spared death. She marries her abuser and has a child with him. 'Friend' cashed in favour and attempts to manipulate girl and steal child to take to his little house in the woods

Surely she should have packed a small bag of essentials, called the police and Women's Aid and have had herself and her baby taken to a refuge?

About as disturbing as a strange man coming down your chimney at night (!!!!!!!!) leaving you gifts

Course they are, that's the point. To give kids a thrill and scare them into behaving.

That is the point of them. The struggle is unavoidable, human nature isn't innately good, there is real conflict and the pain is part of the ultimate pleasure.

I loved the remake they did of Snow White with Sigourney Weaver as the wicked step mother - by 'eck that was properly grim!

You ought to read Women who Run with the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. It's a beautiful poetic wise interpretation of classic fairy tales from a feminist perspective.

I recently read Grimm's Fairy Stories - they're even more disturbing than the versions we think we 'know' and apparently the Grimm's versions (essentially a compilation) were also often watered down....scary stuff!

oh dear lord, they are STORIES,

how many people do you know based any life choices on sleeping beauty?,

they are amazing stories.

Haven't seen that valium. I was a bit freaked even at the toxic mother daughter thing going on in 'tangled'!

Thanks flim ill have a look at that

The 'classic' fairy tales were folk stories that were collected and 'sanitised' by Piaget (I think) in the 18th (?) century.
There's an interesting book by Bruno Bettelheim called something like 'The Uses of Enchantment'(?) that discusses them quite interestingly.
And then there's also Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes - also looks at meaning, backround etc. of folkstories, some of which have been sculpted into 'fairytales'.
Both books are really good if you're interested in the wierdness and darkness of these stories.

I read Three Little Pigs to DD and instinctively wanted to shield her from the nasties and was annoyed I'd read it to her.

Then I remembered having been read it as a littley and not registering the fact that the little pigs get eaten and the wolf gets boiled alive.

DD, in line with this, thinks the picture of the wolf falling down the chimney into the pot of water is hilarious.

Oof, flimflam - sorry, didn't see your 'WWRWTW' post,

Ouch, not Piaget - some bloke starting with a 'P'

Agreed, OP. In fact, the original versions (not intended by an exclusively child audience who didn't have our Disneyfied expectations of a 'fairytale ending' meaning happiness all round) are often far more disturbing - I mean, the ones that were collected as peasant folktales about grim truths and things that weren't sayable in polite socity, before being tidied up for publication by people like the Brothers Grimm, who took out lots of the sexual references.

In the original 'Rapunzel', Rapunzel innocently betrays the prince's visits to her tower to the witch by remarking that her clothes have got tight (ie the prince has been climbing up her hair to have sex with her, and now she's pregnant), and an earlier version of 'Sleeping Beauty' has the prince impregnating the sleeping girl, and her giving birth to several children while still unconscious, and 'Donkeyskin' is about a father who wants to incestuously marry his own daughter.

And lots of the ones that we know as being about wicked stepmothers were originally about abuse or abandonment by biological mothers. Or even the modern fairytales of Hans Christian Andersen - the little mermaid doesn't just have her tongue cut out in order to be able to walk on land - it's also that with a fishtail, she isn't penetrable by a man. No legs = nothing between the legs. She loses her voice to get a vagina.

Plumpdog, I think you're thinking Charles Perrault? Agreed with whoever said Bruno Bettelheim is very interests on fairytales and psychoanalysis. Jack Zipes also.

Charles Perrault?

I agree, Women Who Run With the Wolves is a fascinating read. The author is a professional storyteller and also a Jungian therapist. Also check out Marina Warner's work on the subject ? No Go the Bogeyman and From the Beast to the Blonde, plus I think she may have written more.

Perrault! Thank you, hardcheese - and again.
Great post re. HC Anderson, etc., also.
Shall check Zipes, too.

Good thread, btw.

Oops, x-post with HardCheese.

There is a lot of Jungian theory concerning fairy tales. I've had 3 DCs since I read any of it so can remember practically nothing about it

The one that leaps out particularly is Little Red Riding Hood, which can be seen almost totally in terms of sexual metaphor. The red clothing being the indicator of burgeoning sexuality, the girl on the cusp of puberty goes to a place of former safeness (grandparents' house) and finds that behind the person she has always loved and trusted (maybe the grandmother should be a grandfather) is now a predator. There is something very sexually sinister about the "What big eyes you have Grandma," "All the better to see you with my dear" and where that could eventually lead.

I was reminded of this when poor Holly and Jessica were killed. They thought they were going into their classroom assistants house, but she wasn't there, he was.

Wow! I had no idea about the history behind the stories!!

It's really interesting, if not a hundred times more disturbing than I originally thought! Going to get all those book recommendations

So, they weren't originally intended for children?

I got the complete works H.C Anderson for my birthday last year and I adore it. I plan to read then to DS when he's a little older.

The little sea maid (mermaid) is particularly gory but I thought it was great!

yes

are you learning about domestic abuse? read up on psychology of fairytales it is very interesting

I think they were intended for children, bejeezus - but their function was as cautionary tales rather than (or as well as) 'entertainment'.

Not learning about abuse, but coming out of abusive marriage. I suppose I am more sensitive to these messages as a result of that, at the moment?

Possibly, bejeezus - but I think the vile stuff if all there quite plainly, even in the pink and fluffy versions, it's just that it's all made to seem 'lovely' with pretty colours, we're told it must be a happy ending when Cinderella is stalked through the land because of her missing shoe, etc...