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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Super fussy / possibly OCD sil coming to stay!

56 replies

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 09:08

My brother & Sil are coming to stay tomorrow after having stayed at my Mum's for the past week.
Sil has always been very demanding & brother has always been very accommodating to her "needs".

Examples of past behaviour:

  1. Yesterday made my (75 yr old mother) walk around trying 4 different restaurants for the flavour soup she wanted , nothing pleased her so she went to McD's. Mum too polite to say she was tired, brother too downtrodden to put foot down.
  2. She refuses to get into sync with her jet lag with her guests & lies in til afternoon & then keeps people up half the night with her clonking around & talking.
  3. Makes travelling anywhere hard as she doesn't like sharing "car air" with other people.
  4. Talks incessantly about topics for hours that interest her, & gets cross when anyone tries to change the subject.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.

AIBU to not accomodate every need whilst she is our guest. We have 3 young dcs and we just can't drop everything to please her. Where do you draw the line between guest is pandered to & guest also has to fall in line & be polite?
But if she is OCD how do we handle her everyday stresses?
Help!

OP posts:
DSH · 02/12/2011 09:50

She's probably ASD. Not sure what to suggest.
Good luck.

saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 09:50

"But if she is OCD, is it unreasonable for us to put our dcs needs above hers (eg if she wants to go on a search for a particular type of soup again and we need to get kids home?)"

No - whether she has OCD or not you should not let her control you. The best bit of advice I ever got from someone was an expert in this area. I asked her whether we should engage in ds1's issues if they didn't really matter and she said basically absolutely not. She said ds1 was unable to control his compulsions and if we didn't start to do it for him then the OCD would eat up his life bit by bit. It was excellent advice, he screams if he can't control us when he wants to but soon gets over it and is far far far calmer than when I give him free reign to choose to do whatever he wants.

Obviously I'm not suggesting you tackle her issues if she has any, but you don't need to worry that you are doing the wrong thing if she does have OCD and you don't run around after her and do something that suits you.

saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 09:52

And yes she does sound a bit spectrummy (ds1 is severely autistic - which is why he has OCD like behaviour ). It's why I said give her warning about what will be happening but then stick to the plan.

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 09:53

Thanks 9while5 - I agree, she may well be unwell and perhaps I can find this out from my bother but its quite a blunt question and hard to "pick the moment"! I don't see them much and don't want to spoil the time we have with heavy conversation.

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 02/12/2011 09:56

If she does have any MH problems that are not being addressed then you are all doing her no favours by just giving in to her. She needs a proper assessment, or to live in solitude, her choice, you cannot allow her to dictate how things should be.

If she is getting help then she should be working on her problems. The aim would be to have as 'normal' a life as possible, putting her needs above everone else's isn't right.

She may have had addiction problems as a way of self medicating, but she needs to address that.

You shouldn't allow her to dictate how things are.

Birdsgottafly · 02/12/2011 09:58

If she was in a wheelchair, would you ignore it?

The only way that the barriers about MH is broken down is by everyone being honest. Your brother may find it a relief to talk about it.

Don't make it 'the elephant in the room' as MH problems usually are.

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 10:00

Thanks for some good advice. I think we have to be straight with her as to what our plans are & stick to them. This is hard though - I have booked things in the past, like a city tour ro something, its all been agreed & then when we get there she isn't keen to partake.

OP posts:
working9while5 · 02/12/2011 10:01

Saintlyjimjams, I am not sure that it is that simple to directly compare autism and OCD, even if OCD is diagnosed in autism.. there may be different behavioural contingencies at work.

In my case, the OCD emerged (I now know) because I had a lot of unresolved issues from childhood that were making me panic about impending motherhood. General stuff really, severe neglect and growing up in an alcoholic home that I had never really spoken about and was really repressing..

I don't know, but I think this is somewhat different to a child with autism whose behaviours arise because of extreme sensory confusion. The control that a child with autism exercises is for a different purpose and in some ways is more diffuse. I was simply trying to control my emotions which I did not, under any circumstances, want to confront and which was heightened by hormonal changes and life circumstance. However, if I hadn't confronted and dealt with these fears, I wouldn't have got well. A child with autism doesn't really have the same thing at work.. that sensory perceptual difference can't be resolved so in a way they have to learn to live with it without these controlling behaviours and you are right, they will take over if not dealt with.

So this is not to say that I think anyone should be able to control anyone else, but I suppose I would want condition-specific advice in this case as to make a radical alteration to how it is dealt with. You don't want a sudden shift of approach by the whole family that increases this woman's distress but with no support for her when we don't really know the functions of this behaviour could be actually fairly risky. It sounds like she is getting towards a diagnosis and the family may have a role to play in not "pandering" and enabling this, but it is definitely not something I would undertake to deal with personally without a bit of advice from someone professional?

Does this make sense?

Angelswings · 02/12/2011 10:03

Agree with those who say it sounds as if she could be on the AS. Many of the things you site are things my DS would do if we gave him room to dictate to the family.

He will not go bowling because of the shoes. He will only set certain flavours of soup but will eat at Mc D's. He hate being in the car or even the same room as the dogs. He will stay up all evening and sleep in, has done since he was a few years old.

She may just be a pampered princess though

It may be better if she stays in a local hotel and just visists for a few hours each day

Her Dh may just love her to bits and be prepared to give more than we do with our son. We go bowling without him

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 10:05

Birdsgottafly - I had never thought of it like that - a very good point - her issues are more invisible but still present none the less.

OP posts:
Dawndonnathatchristmasiscoming · 02/12/2011 10:08

It may be ASD or OCD. It may not. The kids should come first. When they arrive, tell her what's happening and when, let her know everything in advance. Perhaps with ice skating you could offer to take a clean pair of socks for her to change into immediately after. Sort out restaurants in advance, see if you can get an online menu and discuss the options with her. Don't forget to book.
As for mornings/evenings, again, tell her, this is when we get up, this is when we go to bed, we don't like wasting the day so we'd appreciate it if you would fit in with us.
Good Luck!

working9while5 · 02/12/2011 10:16

Yes, but obsessive and compulsive behaviours are only one component of AS and there really isn't enough information to diagnose anyone from this.

I think Bird has it right. It needs to be discussed. The issue is it's being skirted around. She may be very aware and maybe even ashamed of her behaviour but feel compelled to do it, or she may have no awareness.

I think some empathy is needed regardless of what is going on here and that's about communication. People can stand firm to their plans without it becoming a battle of wills about who is "right" and who is "wrong" or being snide about it.

I never, ever wanted to "control" or "dictate to" my family, although that's what I did really. I just wanted to control my own panic. I don't think it's helpful to construe these behaviours as being intentionally selfish or negative, because I very much doubt they are intended as such. You can say "we are doing x" and stick to that in an empathetic, I-know-this-is-hard-for-you way or you can be resentful and aggressive about it and use negative language like "pandering" to their "whims". I guess it's up to you. I think that functionally you can have structure and do what you were doing either way, but for me personally, being kind and understanding about seems a better way forward.

saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 10:18

Working - I've read a lot about 'pure' OCD as well. The advice was the same. The main one being to not get involved in engaging in other people's rituals (every time they do it the more it gets fixed). My point here isn't what it is, just that the OP should not feel bad for meeting her children's needs.

DS1's OCD behaviours aren't really sensory related tbh. They're anxiety related (which may have a root in extreme sensory processing differences - but those alone don't give him OCD - he'll sniff things to explore his world for example but not in an OCD type way) but his compulsive behaviours arise from anxiety and when we're tough with them his anxieties decrease.

The expert I saw separated them out and actually said 'if you don't get control of these OCD behaviours they will eat up his life bit by bit more than his autism ever will' (I cut the quote a bit earlier). Anyway it gave me permission to get a bit tough on them and it has really benefitted ds1 (to a degree I didn't expect tbh) - particularly in terms of anxieties.

He can engage in rituals etc but as much as possible he's not allowed to affect anyone else with it.

In terms of a SIL visiting I think it's fine to discuss beforehand where they're going to eat etc, I think it is also perfectly acceptable to stick by what is decided, and look after the kids as normal and not run around after her. Whether she's on the spectrum, has OCD or even has mental health issues (although clearly that might have to go out the window if she has MH issues and has an acute episode).

saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 10:27

Actually the interesting thing about us stepping in and applying boundaries to ds1's rituals was that he then started to impose his own boundaries. So for example he used to watch entire washing machine cycles glued up against the machine. I assumed he liked it, it didn't affect anyone else so I left him to it. Then he started grabbing me when the machine was on and dragging me to the kitchen door to lock it, once locked he'd skip happily off to the computer, or the window or whatever. Clearly he hadn't actually wanted to watch the machine at all, he just hadn't been able to stop himself. He progressed to just needing the door shut and not locked, and now it can be open and he can ignore it.

So no, don't feel guilty about saying no. Don't launch stuff on her though, just be very clear about what'a happening in advance (giving her the option to choose then of course) then stick to it.

working9while5 · 02/12/2011 10:28

I can see re: the anxiety, because that would be my experience with the students I work with.. but I suppose what you can do as a parent with a child and what you can do as a family member with less contact might be a bit different?

I don't think the OP should feel bad about her kids either and I don't think I would advocate deviating... but I suppose what I wonder is how it should be communicated with an adult vs a child. With a child it is socially and functionally appropriate for a parent to say "no, you're not doing that, you're coming with us" but with an adult, it has to be a bit different surely? I would also suspect that an adult will come up with more technically plausible reasons for their obsessions than a child with autism might. At the time of my most acute anxiety, swine flu was raging so my fear was not really that implausible, it was just distorted. I also kept it very much under wraps in most of my life, only really showing it at home.

My other point here is that if you're not dealing with a life long condition, OCD can be a signal that other things need attention.. and there should surely be some discussion around that with an adult who has not had these behaviours before. Why are you doing this? What do you think will happen if we eat here? Bringing the rational into it. There is the behavioural side, which is to not engage with the rituals, but the cognitive side is just as important and I would say this is true for people with autism too. Pointing out the triggers etc...

You can deal with it because you have a lot of info and have done a lot of reading, Saintly, and have had professional advice. I'm just not sure it's great to be tackling this without it, if that makes sense.

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 10:29

Thanks for all the support - your right, I want to be empathetic but at the same time firm that my dcs needs have to be met too. There is no point meeting anxiety with anger - I suppose a bit like how I treat my children when there is an issue - usually I find awkward behaviour is linked to worries of some sort and when I'm super kind (but unbending on the rules) it really helps. Maybe it is a similar principle I have to follow (though apologies for this generalisation).

OP posts:
saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 10:41

Well of course you would have to talk to adult differently working and give more choice in the decision making beforehand. But I don't think there's anything wrong with the outcome being the same. So if you book a restaurant and suddenly there's something wrong in SIL's mind (but there isn't actually wrong) then I think you can say 'well you go off and eat somewhere else if you like but we're staying here'. You don't have to control SIL, but you don't have to engage in her unreasonable behaviour either - whether she's a spoiled princess or someone with anxiety related issues for whatever reason.

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 10:48

Thanks saintly - I will involve her in the restaurant choosing & yes of course will adjust my communication relevant to a 50yr old adult! I think problem is she is used to my bro having his life controlled by her so it is hard when she doesn't get what she wants. He doesn't like to rock the boat and would rather stick his head in the sand - probably easier than challenging issues.

OP posts:
saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 10:50

But I do take your point of course that the way you set that boundary is different when dealing with a verbal adult versus a non-verbal pre-teen who is your child.

I just think that in feeling guilty or trying to do the right thing you can end up actually making the situation worse by getting very fluffy and woolly rather than being very clear about what will happen and when.

saintlyjimjams · 02/12/2011 10:52

It's must very difficult for your brother I'm sure. They would probably need professional help (so she would need to be willing) to sort out unfortunately because she will in some sense be relying on his cooperation. :(

mashedbananaontoast · 02/12/2011 11:01

If I get a moment with just my bro I will approach the subject perhaps - I don't feel I can just come out & ask her "do you have OCD?" They are only here for 2 nights - and are planning a day trip on the Sunday - so it will be hard to find the right moment. BTW I have already emailed re their requests - ie particular food types, sent link to website re day out idea & all has come back positive, so can only hope it goes well...the more I have read thru the comments here, the more I am (in a very unprofessional way!) pretty sure there is an OCD issue here, undiagnosed or not. Whether she is getting help or not I am not sure, but I just want to make the weekend easier for all of us! This post has made me think about her prob being unable to control her reactions / anxieties and feel sorry for her that she has such daily stresses to overcome.

OP posts:
working9while5 · 02/12/2011 11:36

I agree Saintly... yes, set those boundaries but maintaining the kind of language you would use with any other adult e.g. we're eating here now but if you don't want to join us and choose to do your own thing, that's fine with us.

I just saw your post about compulsions there, and I think you are right, they are misunderstood as being what the person wants/is choosing to do when actually it is what it says on the tin: a compulsion, and often terribly unwelcome.

Off topic here but it slightly annoys me when I have seen this categorised as "self-stimulatory" behaviourin autism lightly, where it is suggested that watching the spin cycle gives a sort of "high" that the rest of the environment might match, because this isn't true universally and actually different behaviours have different functions for different people. In your son's case, it was less of a "drug" giving a high than something he just couldn't tear himself away from and needed support to overcome.

In the same way anxiety is a term that is used to describe a lot of different things... I do think anxiety in autism is very often sensory, but not in the sniffing/scratching way more like, anxiety because the brain doesn't react the same way to social stimuli so what seems predictable to the rest of us is more anxiety-provoking because it isn't as easily understood/categorised/generalised. Perhaps neurological is a better word for what I'm talking about. Whereas my anxiety was very much learned more from the environment e.g. life was unpredictable growing up. Although with theories of brain development now, there is an argument that having an unpredictable and chaotic childhood can really affect how your brain functions so I am more likely to feel anxious around unpredictability as an adult even though things have changed in my life just because my brain was wired to treat it this way when I was a child. So different experiences and neurological tendencies can have broadly similar results, meaning an OCD adult can seem very much spectrummy even though there are different things at work, as there is also much overlap.

When I had compulsions to clean etc I often rationally knew, as I got better, that it was a useless, pointless behaviour that wasn't fulfilling its function (e.g. it wasn't making me feel less anxious and/or reducing the risk of something terrible happening) and yet, despite being a very intelligent, logical scientific sort I actually couldn't stop myself from doing it at a behavioural level. I had to talk myself out of it like I was talking to a child, it was absolutely WEIRD. And as you say, that isn't there for a child who is preverbal (and it's hard to know how it could be made to be) so it does have to be behaviourally enforced by someone who, well, can do that. And perhaps with an adult, we need to challenge it by pointing out, gently of course, that it is irrational behaviour (while giving a choice to opt out too, because as you say direction would be inappropriate).

I am just thankful that my experiences were a short-term thing, triggered by hormones and something quite treatable (functioning mainly as avoidance, so once I stopped avoiding they just disappeared). I really do feel for people who live with this long term, for whatever reason they have this. It's really no fun and quite frightening to think your brain can be so out of control.

Kladdkaka · 02/12/2011 12:21

A few people have mentioned autism and that was my first thought too. (Although autistic traits does not equal full on autism.) As a high-functioning autistic adult, here is my take on these very familiar situations, assuming some level of autism:

  1. She was ok with walking round the restaurants. You cannot hold it against her for not knowing that others didn't want to if they didn't say. She does not have the ability to read between the lines or non-verbal communication (or it's very limited). Also restaurant menus can be completely overwealming. There's so much stuff on there that your brain can't process the choice, so you cling to something familiar. All the autistic people in my family have exactly the same thing when they eat out or go to the same places all the time. Any deviation from this has to be known way in advance so the brain can process it. We NEVER decide where we're eating while we're out. That's autistic hell. It's always decided before we go.
  1. Going to bed can be a huge problem for autistic people. They are usually crack of dawn people or up till 4/5 am people. (Check my previous posts you'll see it) We have problems with transitioning from one activity to another. Being up to being asleep is a massive transition. I struggle with it every single day. My family are great with me. They get up like normal and carry on like normal and leave me to join in when I'm up and functioning. If there is a specific activity they make sure I know the time they're leaving the day before as it's easier to transition to something specific than just being up. It might also be worth bearing mind that a lot of autistic people have serious problems falling asleep. If I do manage to get to bed at a reasonable time, I just lie there wide awake until 4/5.
  1. Sorry, no idea about this one. I'm the complete opposite of germ issues and have problems with the fact that I don't take enough precautions.
  1. This one makes me sad. I do this. I can't help it. It's one of the primary diagnostic criteria of autism. If I wasn't like this, I wouldn't be autistic. I either talk incessantly or I don't talk at all. I can't regulate anything in between. Some people tell me. It really hurts and the only way I can control it is to not speak at all. Other people accept that it's beyond my control and accept me as I am.
AugustMoon · 02/12/2011 12:25

Make a joke of it - ie take the piss out of her for her selfish tendencies to talk incessantly about herself, not share 'car air' and her pickiness. Don't pussyfoot around, she's your guest so needs to adapt. And get the kids to wake her up in the morning! This doesn't sound like OCD, more like narcissism.

Kladdkaka · 02/12/2011 12:29

Yeah, great suggestion. Sounds like she might be autistic so take the piss out of her Hmm