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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Popular cuts and popular taxes

157 replies

jollydiane · 30/11/2011 16:56

Can we think of anything which we could agree on?

  1. The national lottery is a type of tax, but nobody is forced to pay it and we all like the thought of winning a million pounds so lets increase the tax up on this.
  1. Winter Fuel allowance. This is scary for all governments but it cannot be fair for higher rate tax payers to receive this benefit, scrap this allowance they managed to do this for Child Tax Credits so it cannot be that hard.
  1. When I went to Turkey I had to pay for a £10 Visa to get into the country, lets have the same here for tourists. After all many of our best tourist attractions are free any way so its not much to ask.
  1. Can we scrap the free swimming for over 50, would it really put the over 50s off swimming if they had to pay a few pounds?
  1. How is it that so many big projects go so wrong, e.g. NHS IT system, what system do we have that allowed this to happen?
  1. There was talk by the government that if a pensioner paid £8500 they would have all their care paid for and would not have to sell their home. Although I have not heard much about this I cannot think this would ever be affordable.
  1. Do we really need Trident are there better alternatives?

If we can agree then perhaps we can give this to our MP's or let Ed and David know we have solved their problems

Ok over to you

OP posts:
bemybebe · 30/11/2011 20:01

sorry, wrongly remembered. really rich ones have a fee of £35K per year...

CinnabarRed · 30/11/2011 20:02

And the only logical way to cut spending is to make all services and benefits means tested. But it would be so deeply unpopular that it will never happen.

bemybebe · 30/11/2011 20:03

I say get this bastard Abramovich by his balls with the rest of the thieving rich Russians!

bemybebe · 30/11/2011 20:04

"And the only logical way to cut spending is to make all services and benefits means tested. But it would be so deeply unpopular that it will never happen."

And too expensive.

CinnabarRed · 30/11/2011 20:07

"cinna resident non-doms have to pay the same taxes as everyone else these days (worldwide income)".

No they don't. After a few years of tax breaks they can elect to pay a negligible (to the mega wealthy) fixed annual sum). I personally know dozens of non-doms who were delighted with this.

I'm a tax policy adviser by profession, BTW.

auntiepicklebottom2 · 30/11/2011 20:07

what I would do i merge the child tax credits and child benifits into one....why do we need the 2

CinnabarRed · 30/11/2011 20:08

X-post!

cricketballs · 30/11/2011 20:09

easy -

pull all troops out of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya it will save us billions

pull out (financially) of Europe

start thinking about our own country, its needs before thinking we can save everyone else in the world

jollydiane · 30/11/2011 20:11

I didn't object to the Tax credits being removed, to be fair it needs to go to the more deserving rather than higher rate tax payers, again I don't see why I am getting child benefit.

OP posts:
amicissima · 30/11/2011 20:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MindtheGappp · 30/11/2011 20:30

We are US taxpayers as well as UK. Now US taxes are horrendously complicated, but only for higher earners/investors.

What I like about the US system is that everyone in your family gets a personal allowance (exemptions). So, there is no 'child benefit' - the exemption takes care of this. There are further exemptions/deductions/credits depending on famiy circumstances.

Basically, you earn money and get taxed on a proportion of it. If your earnings are low or needs great, the amount you get taxed on is low. You don't need a secondary system of giving credits (benefits) - it is all done via the taxation system. Clearly if you earn no money, or below the threshold, there is a small benefits system (which would be much larger in the UK).

The UK system is particularly stupid. When I was a SAHM with five children, I received no benefits other than CB because DH was a higher rate taxpayer. I didn't even get my own personal allowance. Having five children is quite a cost, so it seemed senseless that someone with one child and a DH earning just under the higher rate threshold would be entitled to tax credits and we weren't. That is the problem with the UK system - too many step changes. This is what keeps people in a benefits trap.

Benefits are just, to me, negative taxation. I am a firm believer that the taxation system should be used by governments to influence behaviour (eg high car tax to discourage gas-guzzling cars, without prohibiting them and limiting personal freedomes). The benefits system does not encourage worthy behaviour, unfortunately.

jollydiane · 30/11/2011 20:38

The more I think about it, I tend to agree with you. All this 'tinkering' makes it very confusing.

OP posts:
maypole1 · 30/11/2011 20:47

Yes I don't understand either why are the government taking our money only to pay in back in child tax

Just let us keep our tax

MrsPeterDoherty · 30/11/2011 20:47

More people should pay for prescriptions. My colleague is working, age 63, and gets free prescriptions, free bus, WFA. Same income as me.
And the English should stop subsidising the Welsh and Scottish, they should pay for prescriptions too. The UK is one country, there shouldn't be benefits according to where you live

hardboiledpossum · 30/11/2011 21:05

CinnabarRed Vodafone avoided 6bn in tax all on it's own so I don't believe that all tax avoidances only adds up to 12bn.

redlac · 30/11/2011 21:56

Scotland gets a sum of money and the Scottish government decide how it is spent so the money paying for the prescriptions is taken from that budget. I am sure there Re lots of initatives which only apply to England which are not available in Scotland. Frankly as the "sick man of Europe" scotland needs all the help we can get to improve peoples health.

awaits the first person to suggest England gets rid of the free loading Scots

Whatmeworry · 30/11/2011 22:00

CinnabarRed Vodafone avoided 6bn in tax all on it's own so I don't believe that all tax avoidances only adds up to 12bn.

I think its £ 12bn pa, but some of these Corps have been at it for ages which is why I suggest a windfall tax. They won't leave the UK, thats a bluff - its far too big a market.

CardyMow · 30/11/2011 22:13

How is uncontrolled epilepsy a 'broken fingernail'? How is Autism a 'broken fingernail'? How are MH problems a 'broken fingernail'? Yet there are a lot of people with these disabilities that are no longer being paid ANY disability benefits. And also not claiming JSA.

Because they are caught in a loophole where they are no longer classed as 'disabled enough' for disability benefits - but neither are they classed as fit for FT work, so they don't satisfy the criteria for JSA. Which leaves them with NO INCOME. People have commited suicide because of this.

Yes, I agree that something needs to be done. My take on it - Make it so that until the lowest paid worker in a company can LIVE without any benefits, the highest paid worker cannot earn more than £60K. When I say NO benefits, I mean no Child Benefit, no Working Tax Credit, no Child Tax Credit, no help with childcare for up to 3 dc, no Housing Benefit, and no Council Tax Benefit. Why should some big boss get to earn more than £60K when his staff can't afford to EAT without Government subsidy? If the boss wants workers - he needs to be prepared to pay them an amount that ensures the Government has no need to subsidise the employee.

Also, change the taxation system. If anyone under £22K didn't have to pay tax - there wouldn't be the reliance on Tax Credits that there currently is - someone on £22K can survive. However - it needs to be that NO-ONE can be paid less than this. Raise Min Wage to a liveable amount. Tax Credits are a Business subsidy that allows employers to pay their employees LESS than they need to live off. Tax Credits = Business Subsidy.

Stop Workfare. If there is a job there for someone to do - pay them a decent wage instead of making them do it for £1.36 an hour. Workfare is a steady, insidious erosion of hard won workers rights that have been fought for by many brave people over the last hundred or so years, and Workfare is wiping them out overnight. That way, instead of creating a group of indentured slaves (look it up on Wiki - that's what workfare participants are), you are GETTING PEOPLE BACK TO WORK. The Jobcentre says - here is a job for you, you take it or lose your benefits (just like Workfare so far). However - instead of the person doing the work for their JSA, they do it for NMW. And are off benefits and IN WORK. . If there is a job there for a Workfare participant to do, then the job is surely there for a normal employee to do?!

CinnabarRed · 01/12/2011 11:47

OK. Vodafone. What happened is this:

In 2000 Vodafone bought the German Mannesmann group. I forget the sums involved but they were huge. Can we use £50bn for the purposes of this thread without anyone wrongly assuming it to be the correct sum?

Vodafone borrowed the money in the UK. It had to because the banks required it to secure the borrowing over its profitable worldwide businesses. Vodafone then incorporated a Luxembourg subsidiary. The Lux sub had £50bn of equity but no debt. The Lux sub incorporated a German sub, and lent the German sub £50bn. The German sub bought Mannesmann.

So what were the implications? The German sub had interest expense that it had to pay to its Lux parent, that it could relieve against the German profits of Mannesmann. I don't have any issue with that because it's a good example of source taxation - a German expense incurred to buy profitable German businesses.

The Lux sub had interest income paid to it from the German sub, and no expenses. But Luxembourg is the tax haven of Europe. Its tax authorities agreed a ridiculously low tax rate on the interest as an incentive to Vodafone to include Lux in the deal at all (not that it's specific to Vodafone - the Lux authorities offer the same deal to anyone who asks. They rationalise that they'd rather collect 8% on something than 37% on nothing). Now frankly, that's Luxembourg's business, not the UK's.

In the UK, there was interest expense on the borrowing from the bank and no immediate income. Because one of the fundamental differences of holding shares (in the case in Lux sub) rather than lending debt is that the return on shares in the form of dividends is discretionary whereas debt interest has to be paid.

The Revenue wasn't happy about Lux. There are specific anti-avoidance provisions that say that if a UK company has a foreign sub, and that sub pays a materially lower amount of tax than an equivalent UK company would then the profits of the foreign sub are taxed on the UK company as if it had earned the profits itself. So the Revenue said to Vodafone that it should pay UK tax on the Lux interest income.

What the Revenue hadn't reckoned on was that way back when the UK joined the European Union it signed the Treaty of Rome. And among all the other stuff that's in there are clauses that say that all companies within the EU are entitled to establish their businesses anywhere within the EU without being discriminated against due to where they're based). Vodafone argued that it was being discriminated against because it was entitled to have subs anywhere the hell it liked in Europe without the UK tax system penalising it for the European locations it chose. And Vodafone won.

(BTW, when I say Vodafone won the argument, I meant with the Revenue - it did go through some of the lower courts, which found in favour of Vodafone, but didn't make it to the Supreme Court. In my view if it had done then Vodafone would have won. The Revenue did bloody well to get £1.1bn out of them - I think Vodafone probably bottled it a bit!)

That's not a loophole, which might be defined as creating an unexpected outcome from the legislation- it's an unambiguous and inevitable outcome of the UK signing the TreatyIVodafone'st not Vodafone's fault that the UK government wasn't smart enough to realise all the implications of what it had signed up for.

The aspect of this that Vodafone really took advantage of was the fact that there's a fundamental difference in the UK tax treatment of debt and equity invested in a (in this case Lux) subsidiary. If the UK was stupid enough to try to treat equity like debt and compute an interest like return to the parent then at a stroke it would make itself the harshest parent company regime in the world. No-one does it. And that's because economically debt and equity are fundamentally different.

The other thing to bear in mind is to speculate over what Vodafone might have done if it didn't use the Lux structure to buy Mannesmann. The simplest thing would have been to borrow in the UK and have the UK buy Mannesmann direct. The problem then would have been that the interest expense wouldn't have been matched against the German income, so the source taxation principle wouldn't have been met. Plus the UK would still suffer exactly the same stinking great interest expenses, so there was no tax lost to the Exchequer.

Finally, at the time of the deal, Vodafone would have expected to pay UK tax when it started to receive dividend income from Mannesmann. Dividends are now exempt from tax, a deliberate policy decision by the previous government to make the UK an attractive location for US businesses to use to invest into Europe.

Whatmeworry · 01/12/2011 12:09

Yes over the last decade or so there has been a race to the bottom as countries gave benefits to corporations to have HQs in their countries. The resulting shortfalls in revenues were met by taxing the immobile citizens and borrowing, and now it's all blowing up.

Ghoulwithadragontattoo · 01/12/2011 12:41

Cinnabar - Yes Vodafone demonstrates the problem from the government's point of view nicely. It's impossible to talk about what is lost due to avoidance as if it is some clear amount that could be neatly ring fenced and brought into tax. Of course the UK isn't going to come out of the EU just so that it can stop a company borrowing through a Lux vehicle. So Vodafone can't be taxed. The government can change the legislation (or try to) but then the companies will change their behaviour also. You cannot be taxed on what you don't owe and it is impossible in legislation to cover all the bases of what sort of "avoidance" activities might be undertaken to close loopholes. Journalists always talk as if HMRC haven't thought of this. Then you're left with introducing a general anti-avoidance rule as the Australians have but that brings in it's own challenges.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 12:42

Brilliant post cinna, thank you for taking time.

CinnabarRed · 01/12/2011 12:52

Well, Graham Aaronson QC is looking at whether the UK should introduce a GAAR, of course.

Regarding what is and isn't avoidance, that's for the courts to decide - not me, you, HMRC or the government - it's the rule of law. Parliament creates the legislation, HMRC administers it, and the courts interpret it.

CinnabarRed · 01/12/2011 12:57

In my view, BTW, avoidance occurs whenever a person (individual or company) undertakes a transaction that has little or no commercial purpose other than to save tax. A lot of the personal tax loss creation schemes fall into that bracket (generally where someone enters into a transaction that creates a small economic loss but apparently a large tax one - the courts hate those, rightly so, and will go out of their way to defeat them). For me, Vodafone didn't fall into the same category.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 13:01

Is it considered? But isn't it the case that under GAAR the courts will no longer have the power to interpret the law, but the HMRC will just slap the tax if the situation can be argued both ways. This is the best way to stop any investment dead in its tracks.