to think that spending £30 billion on the UK's infrastructure is a stupid idea?

[belledechocchipcookie]

10 billion from the government, 20 billion from private companies. Isn't it a better plan to invest in people so that it will filter down?

1000 more nurses and teachers (or whatever) would pump more money into the economy as they will need somewhere to live (bonus to house building) and have money to spend in the shops (bonus to shops and manufacturing).

Improve the roads means people will get from A to B quicker. It's pointless going from A to B if you don't have a job and you can't afford the petrol. It seems very ill thought out and stupid to me. Could someone explain it to me please

"Cut VAT, freeze fuel duty, and tax the crap out of financial services and bankers bonuses."

i think i only agree with one thing: freeze fuel duty, make getting to work (and consequently work itself) pay more in that way, so when people do the 'is it worth taking this job' calculation they are more likely to get a 'yes'.

VAT only applies to certain kinds of goods - sharp end price is only 'tweaked' by VAT - big ticket items (car eg) are more about credit availability

I work in FS. as do 400 other people in the same building. we export the stuff we do globally. If we couldn't price our service competitively, it wouldn't be done in this country and those 400 jobs wouldn't be here either. also, what we provide is trade finance - increasing the price to pass on a tax increase to our customers increases the cost of money to the companies we lend to. Typically SMEs in the first 5-10 years since start up. People you think need increased costs?

as for 'bankers bonuses' they are already subject to taxation, and coming up with a taxation scheme for this that was 1) loophole free and 2) wouldn't affect lots of people you didn't want it to effect would cost more in writing-time than it would bring in revenue. people hire accountants at £600ph for a reason - they can deliver that in value.

if you look at post-depression US - investment in infrastructure was the way out. this is what Brown should have done.

TheCalvert We have stopped spending. I've only had 10 weeks of work since being made redundant in February. My wife in on adoption leave and stops getting paid this month. We've only spent on food, utilities and petrol, and a few things for our new little boy since March. I know our neighbours are in a similar position. We're not buying presents this year, except for our boy.

Yes, the deficit needs to be reduced but there are so many ways the government can raise money other than the way they are. If there are tax loopholes then close the bloody things! Stop making deals with corporations so they don't have to pay interest on their back taxes!

I heard a bloke on the news saying that this investment won't make any real difference. It's £10b in an economy worth £1500b a year. The amount is too small to make an impact. They just want to grab some headlines in the hope they don't get crucified at the next election.

Oh, and Edless? The current US debt started to pay for that infrastructure investment after the depression. They were actually in the black before that. They could only do it by borrowing massive amounts of cash they didn't have!

Well the plan is for £10 billion public money & £20 billion private. So £30 billion in total.

Whilst in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny amount, it's a step in the right direction and all those people who will be employed on the back of this investment will see a real difference.

As with all politician's, there will be a degree of trying to control the headlines but on this occasion I think it's for the right reasons than the wrong.

Oh yes, I forgot. They want to get private investment and one of their ideas is to build toll roads to pay back that investment. Great. More tax anyone???

Even a rabid Tory government knows that the private sector cannot create growth on it's own.

Construction has always been the favoured method of promoting growth which, as many people on here have said, included far more than just builders and materials suppliers and is relatively quick and certain i.e. not reliant on sales or external factors.

Here in Cornwall most private sector enterprises - outside tourism which is mostly seasonal anyway - have suffered badly and some form of intervention from the state has been esential.

In my small way I have benefited directly from the state investing in building work because many of my earlier commissions were via the council - housing improvements, disabled adaption works, school projects and so on. If I had had to rely soley on private commissions from the start, I would probably not have survived.

you got to spend money to make money, this work will boost the UK constructon sector, will boost employment and will boost work with local suppliers, plus it these people are UK tax payers

whilst it may seem like alot, its alot less than was prevously planned

to develop the NHS etc we need a growing economy, everything needs to be adresses

as for the "tax banker"

they are taxed
they are the only fuckers that are spending now, we need some people with money!!!! to keep retail and pother such markets running
Tax paid by large banks covers the cost of running the NHS

I am not a banker!!!! but some really naive views on here

Well Curly, I hadn't heard about the toll road thing but is it such a big deal? It's not like the entire £30 billion will be spent on toll roads.

I mean if they improve train lines, you are charged to ride on a train. Is that an issue?

The M6 toll road has been there for years. It's entirely optional. Sometimes I go around it. A couple of times I decided to pay.

What's the big deal? Would you rather we didn't spend anything and get nothing? I'm still unclear as to what you would prefer to see instead?

Niceguy, firstly I'd like to see businesses have the confidence to expand and start hiring again so I can find a job. Building roads won't achieve this. Secondly I'd like to see my limited funds going farther. Building roads won't achieve this either. I'm not an economist so I don't really know what they should do. What i think would help is to reduce VAT and fuel duty, reign in what utilities charge, and get business moving again by getting banks to lend to them with decent terms.

Why wouldn't building roads give businesses the confidence to expand? Think it through. Road building means hiring equipment... so the equipment hire company expands. It means using raw materials like tar and stone... so those companies can expand. It would employ not only people to make the road but keep the books, pay the wages, manage the IT systems, find accommodation etc. As for making your limited funds go further, if a transport company can cut an hour off a journey time then they use less fuel and can charge less for deliveries... which knocks on to the price of goods in the shops. It may not be dramatic or instantaneous and it may not help you directly and immediately but, if there are enough of these schemes, the beneficial effects are potentially far more long-lasting than simply paying wage bills each month.

"I'd like to see businesses have the confidence to expand and start hiring again so I can find a job. Building roads won't achieve this"

Do-oh!!!! so who will build the roads? who will drive the materials? who will do the admin for the work? engineers, builders. The UK constructon sector are really struggling so this provides a way to (a) do something thats needed and (b) provide UK businesses with work

as for your limitied funds, I hear you. but alot of that is down to oil prices and inflaton and there aint alot of we do on this thread to address that

Curly, i think the previous 2 posters have said what I otherwise would have.

What area are you in? Obviously it depends on your skills as to whether or not this infrastructure scheme will help you or not.

CurlyBoy - businesses almost universally said that the VAT cut was a terrible idea. It gave them loads of extra paperwork and admin, which hit small businesses the hardest.
Cutting it again now would be the last thing that would give them confidence.

I sympathise with the limited funds, but there isn't much the government can do about that in the short term. Your benefits will be rising with inflation, which is more than can be said for most wage packets, and fuel duty is frozen.

If the roads are built in Norfolk it won't do me any bloody good in Leeds! (for example)

Also, I'm not currently getting any benefits! I've use up my 6 months of JSA a while ago and the amount of tax credits and other benefits we'd be entitled to are so little it's not worth applying for. My wife has a pretty decent job that she's returning to in Feb, but until then we're living off of savings.

Fuel duty isn't frozen. It's set to go up 3p in January.

But if the roads were being built in Leeds (for example) then it would be great news for you.

I thought fuel duty was frozen as per the announcement the other day?

Curlyboy - the company that wins the contract to build the road in Norfolk may well be based in Leeds and need additional admin/HR staff at it's HQ. Having won the contract and with future finances secure, that same company may decide to co-invest in a new city centre development in Leeds that allows another 10/15 growing companies to relocate there and offer new jobs. The kind of companies who deal in infrastructure have a national reach and significance (Balfour Beaty/Willmott Dixon/Laing O'Rourke.) It is certainly more than just the benefits that one road brings to one area.

There is a map on Treasury home page that shows the infrastructure schemes all over the country. They have been specially chosen to ensure that strategically important routes in every region are chosen.

Here.

I missed the Mr. Osbornes statement on Tuesday so it may have been.

I'm still not convinced that this investment will make a noticeable difference to the economy or my bottom line, short, medium OR long term. Sure, a few companies may benefit and a few jobs may be created that are long term. I don't think it will do anything to increase consumer or business confidence enough to bring the economy back. All indicators are we'll be in this state for years to come. Some group, the IFS I think, calculates that in 2016 we will only be as well off as we were in 2002.

Hm. if you work for a company in Cornwall, improvements to a road in the North can still help your business if you run freight along it. building/ improving roads can open up whole new areas to investment.

the New Deal may have been paid for on loan, but that proved to be worth it in the longer run. as niceguy said, 10bn isn't that much in the context of current UK finances - this is affordable, it is worth doing, the only problem is it wasn't done sooner.

looking at the plan for the South East, arguably there isn't much there!

the 130 additional rail carriages is good, and needed

the M3 plan..depends what they mean..very busy piece of motorway.

I think they could be doing much more in the South East.

looking at the plan, it is actually for 200billion over 5 years, mostly from private sector...so maybe there's some hope there.

" Hm. if you work for a company in Cornwall, improvements to a road in the North can still help your business... "

I read that and thought it was in response to my earlier post but realise it's probably Ginsters you are thinking about? :)

hmm..Pengennas Pasties :)

they are fantastic, but best consumed within 24 hrs of leaving the shop...

The construction industry is a huge employer in this country. It is also on its knees. People like my DH are on the verge of upping sticks and heading to the Middle East where there is at least work. These projects will provide employment for lots of people (contructions staff, admin, caterers etc) who then will feed this money into the economy. The public sector staff are not the only people who spend money and support our economy also.

YABU, kind of.
We need more investment in infrastructure. I just hope a good chunk of it goes on improving (vastly) public transport.

The roads are already very congested, and petrol is not going to get any cheaper, so improving roads is a fairly short term plan.
Plus, it is fairly well proven that when you increase roadage, within a couple of years the traffic increases to fill it.

If I was George smug twat Osborne I would be investing in all the little commuter train lines that exist all over Britain.

But on the whole it is a good idea.

It makes me laff how the Tories have tried the "lets completely shut down the economy" plan, and found that, oops, that makes things worse, so they have adopted the infrastructure plan.
It is also how Roosevelt dragged the US out of the Great Depression (the first one). Well, that and a massive war. Ulp.