is he being unreasonable?

[newfashionedmum]

DP gets annoyed when I don't express myself clearly - if we are trying to discuss or agree something and i use vague language it frustrates him as he feels i'm not respecting his time and putting enough effort into thinking about what i'm saying. He gets quite confrontational and condescending in his language and tone of voice. I find it really rude and upsetting. Which on the face of it i THINK is really unreasonable - but the way he feels about it is that I'M being inconsiderate because I'm being sloppy with my language and I'm wasting time.

reading this back i think he sounds like a complete twunt. i think i've maybe misrepresented him a bit. But he does get really frustrated when he's trying to just get on with stuff and i (or others) slow him down. can anyone identify with him and say he's not BU?

Ok then bup, I take it back ... I'm not like your DH ... I'm totally like your MIL.

Night new ... take care of yourself. And I didn't think you rambled at all - don't start running yourself down to us too!

LRD

Sometimes MIL will get twenty minutes into a conversation without drawing breath about buses and will cover Ron's gluten allergy, Frances's market research samples and the buses being shit and I'll realise that we'd actually started talking about her mum's tooth operation.

She IS a lovely, lovely woman, though and I do love her dearly.

I don't think power struggles are a normal part of a relationship.

I've had some bad relationships in the past where in hindsight I see there was a sort of power struggle going on. My good relationships, however, have been more like partnerships.

I think it's hard to balance your own needs and identity with the wish to be in a good partnership. But I don't equate that with a power struggle.

This is one of the most reasonably discussed AIBUs I have ever read.

Hope you get it sorted OP, you've certainly inspired some constructive debate and have no problems communicating when you are given the time and space to do so.

I think there are 2 separate issues:

1. Whether he's BU to get annoyed at having to ask for clarification.
2. Whether he's BU in the way that he expresses it.

1. FGS all conversations involve a certain amount of clarification and validation. I remember going on a communication training course at work where we had to instruct a group to draw a simple diagram and they weren't allowed to ask any questions. It seemed easy, but no-one got it right. Then when we described another diagram, but the group were allowed to ask for clarification and it went swimmingly. So unless you're unclear in almost everything you say, HIBU. Can he really not spare 5 seconds to ask which account you meant?

1. Confrontational, rude and upsetting is not reasonable.

I think you were right; he is a twunt.

He probably means that because she's being vague, the task at hand ends up taking three times longer than if she had just explained it more clearly in the first place, instead of needing extra clarification/extra explaining.

Is there a timing thing? I do get more wound up if I'm busy and agree to do something then find it's going to take far longer because it's been under- estimated becuase its not thought through and the person is still faffing mentally.

Oh God OP you're not like my friend are you, who never finishes a sentence but instead waves her hands vaguely and expects you to fill in the blanks?

Is that what you mean?

Examples:

"I just feel really.... you know when you just think....? And he was just so.... and I know I can be very..... but there have been times when he's been..... but I just think....." etc etc.

Most of the time it's possible to work out what she's on about but sometimes it's impossible.

blonde - brilliant point. new, I agree, you come across as completely able to explain yourself on here (and you know how AIBU is notorious for people insisiting over and over that the OP is wrong because they haven't followed what's going on, so I reckon if you can get consensus here you must be pretty good!).

Btw, thinking about the specific example you gave of the computer and him being impatient because he had ironing to do ... TBH I would expect my partner to be saying 'sorry, I don't ahve time, I'll do this first' if he were really frazzled. Maybe it's worth telling him you would rather he lets you know if he's impatient before you decide to get into a technical conversation, rather than him seething away at your perfectly normal way of communicating?

Anyway, I hope you're feeling better this morning.

no Calamity, I'm not like that - I'm more kind of... and then he gets all... and then I...

Dreaming I don't really mean struggle - at least I didn't back then but my wrong wordage is interesting (as well as a good eg of what my DP means!) because that is how it feels now. Back in the day when I said it I meant more of a power dynamic - in my less fraught relationships there was a sort of gentle to-ing and froing - who's more into the other person - who's putting more focus on the relationship - who wants to get married/have children/go on holidays and who's agreeing to it or not - that kind of thing - but it was always negotiated and like you said, felt like a partnership. This often feels like a running battle! But you have given me food for thought - can you expand maybe on I think it's hard to balance your own needs and identity with the wish to be in a good partnership. But I don't equate that with a power struggle. I think i like where you're going but they do feel the same to me at the moment even though they shouldn't.

blonderedhead you're so right, I really appreciate the way people have responded so thoughtfully and constructively and not just with knee jerk judgement - you're also right that when I can stay calm and really think about what I'm saying I'm reasonably articulate - which is what winds DP up - he knows I can be but I'm not always.

whatmeworry yes there is a timing thing. The problem is, there's not often a time when DP isn't wishing he could be doing something else...

thanks LRD and for coming back - yes am feeling much better this morning. And he is trying hard to make amends. I have done the things you mention, asking him to let me know if its a bad time, telling him how upsetting it is. The root problem in terms of his reaction is that he can't help himself getting irritated by my vagueness and relaxed approach. We are like the tortoise and the hare. I can even empathise a bit because my ex and I were like that except HE was the tortoise! Funnily enough, although DP and Ex knew each other they never got on very well, I wonder why

I still think that as with all entrenched relationship issues, its more complex than it first appears - yes I'm irritating, and yes he's unreasonable - not to be irritated but to be so confrontational about it - but the real problem is what causes that level of irritation in him that he can't see the funny/endearing side - and then what causes the panic in me that i can't either.

I feel more confident that it's not be out of order for me to expect him to be more forgiving in his thought processes as many of you are with your dithery other halves. Thank you for that. If they ever post on here I will stick up for you all

whatmeworry yes there is a timing thing. The problem is, there's not often a time when DP isn't wishing he could be doing something else...

Picking up on something LRD said, I think there is a switchover point in any relationship when instead of rushing to DP's side to help you say "hang on, I need to do this first" and/or "no, I want to do this now" and that can be an eggshell negotiation.

But OP, I think you are pointing to a bigger thing?

Yup a bigger thing. I think he's angry. He thinks he was angry but isn't now. So I wonder if I'm oversensitive. I think the concensus is that I'm probably not. Therefore the implication is that he is still more aggressive than I should reasonably be expected to put up with.
One could just say reasonableness is irrelevant and if I'm upset that's all that matters - but as he's feeling like he's already made lots of changes and its still not enough for me - it helps for me to get a sense of where he is on the normalness spectrum, and where I am too, and that its OK for me push a bit further.

Glad you're feeling better. I think you're right it's complex ... everyone does that thing of fixing on what looks like an obvious issue and then finding it's the product of a whole set of underlying tensions. But I don't think it's a bad thing to do, I think you are right you need to stick up for yourself a bit more and not just push it to one side. But you sound like you are well on the way with that.

I agree with whatme too that it sounds like a bigger thing than just the negotiation about when to prioritize your time and when to prioritize his.

No, you're not oversensitive.

And I totally agree about reasonableness - two people arguing are not going to agree what is 'reasonable' because there's not a convenient standard for it, but you can agree that the other person is hurt/irritated or whatever.

I don't know, but I would think it is helpful to him to know you are trying to work this out, you're not just assuming you're right or he's right, you are working on it. I mean it's a confidence boost, isn't it, to know even if your partner is arguing with you, s/he is trying to make sense of it all.

Oh gosh, let me try to be as articulate as you in responding on the power dynamic thing

It's interesting, some of the things you noted as part of a power dynamic in a relationship -- who is into each other more, is giving more to the relationship, etc.

What strikes me is that perhaps you are interpreting relationships in the framework of a competition, which would then lead into the idea of specific disagreements or discrepancies being part of a broader power relationship. I don't think all relationships can inherently be cast in these terms.

I think in a good partnership, you are thinking in terms of what you want and how to get there. Yes, there may be negotiations sometimes, but to me the idea of a power dynamic brings in the idea that at any one point someone is winning or losing in relation to the other person, which is actually antithetical to the idea of a partnership. The problem with thinking in terms of power is that it encourages a zero-sum way of thinking. It also encourages thinking along the lines of 'I did this for you, why can't you do this for me?' -- as opposed to just doing things for each other because you care about each other.

As I said, I do find it hard sometimes to balance myself as an individual with my relationships. But I have found that in my good relationships, this is more of a personal issue for me to resolve -- for example, reminding myself to be more patient. And if DH and I do disagree, we approach the problem on its own merits.

BUT in my less-good relationships, finding that balance gets tied into the kind of power dynamics you are talking about. I find myself less willing to sacrifice myself because it will make me vulnerable relative to him. And every disagreement is not its own thing, before long we are dragging every other problem we have into it.

Basically, I can see what you mean about power dynamics, but I think approaching things in this way can obscure the bigger picture, which is:

Does this man make you happy?

It really is that simple. If he's not making you happy, and he's not willing to change any more than he already has, then no dynamic in the world will make you feel better.

Sorry I don't know if I've explained that decently or not

Ach that's long! Attack of the academics, sorry

I find myself less willing to sacrifice myself because it will make me vulnerable relative to him wow that so struck a chord. That is exactly it - with a twist of feeling also that if I say I'm happy with the status quo he might take advantage and want me to change -or think nothing else needs to change in him. Its like I'm defending my borders and any acquiescence is a sign of weakness that might encourage him to push harder. My happiest relationship felt like the partnership you describe, approaching problems as something outside the two of us that we worked out a way to tackle together - so I know I'm capable of that.

My life with him overall makes me very happy, and he as a person used to as a friend. But he's not gentle and kind enough with me now, which is what i need to feel safe, and if I'm honest, to really love him and desire him. But if we weren't together I would be very unhappy (everything else in my life is good and would fall apart) and i would really miss him. I suppose because he's change so much I believe he can still change more - but maybe he's come as far as he can.

I should add, this competitive approach you describe is the way he's learnt to find solutions - the debating society approach - where two people take a standpoint and battle out their views. The winner is right and its their course of action that should be taken. The problem is that this approach favours the person with the debating skills and rarely ends in a mutually agreeable compromise that both parties feel ownership of. It is also really unpleasant for people who hate confrontation (my family think of me as the peacemaker). My preferred style is of collaboration against a joint 'enemy' - the problem itself is depersonalised and doesn't belong to one or other, just sits in front of them like a tricky jigsaw.

I wonder if I've slipped into this style because this is how he works - but taking it a bit too much to heart because its not my usual style - so then 'defeats' become personalised for me.

This line from your post "I suppose because he's changed so much I believe he can still change more - but maybe he's come as far as he can" really worries me OP. I think in a relationship it's perfectly acceptable to ask a partner to change specific behaviour such as leaving towels on the floor but if you're asking someone to change how they fundamentally relate to other people that's just going too far IMO. From everything you've said it sounds to me like you and your DP have completely different styles of communicating and you're unintentionally pissing each other off. Some people just don't find it easy to talk to each other - they each expect different things from a conversation and get annoyed when the other person doesn't deliver. It's fine if you can just accept it and laugh at it but if it genuinely causes problems then you have to wonder if the relationship can continue.

I know it might sound harsh but it sounds to me like you're saying to your DP - I don't like how you are, you need to be different. If my DH said that to me I'd be gutted and I don't know if I could stay with him.

If you weren't together you would be unhappy for a while, but life does go on, eventually you would get over it and find someone else who could make you really happy all the time.

Why do you think everything else would fall apart if you split? Wouldn't the fact that everything else is good help you through it?

I do think there is a limit to how much people can change, and generally if you are thinking in terms of 'everything would be great if only he would do this' then you are not really in love with the man as he is but the man you want him to be.

Is he willing to become the man you want him to be?

Perhaps I'm overly cynical but in my experience of relationships (20+ years ) it is easier to go out and find someone else to be with than it is to transform a man into what you want him to be.

Okay just saw your second post.

This debating style approach is an awful way to communicate in a relationship. Or really, to use anywhere outside of a debate!

Your natural way of approaching things is what a healthy relationship should look like. I'm surprised you have been willing to put up with his approach, it's incredibly divisive and dismissive.

I think probably in a lot of relationships one person is better at arguing than the other but there are ways to deal with this. I argue better than DH but I don't want to 'win' all the time because of that I want him to be on board with what we decide and agree on a compromise. So we have changed the way we argue a lot.

How incredibly convenient for your DP that he is good at debating -- and whoever wins the debate gets his way!

No wonder you are self-conscious with communicating with him if you feel you have to win the debate to be heard.