to be infuriated by how the press discuss Lily Allen?

[ThisTimeNextWeek]

I can't help but feel angry, hurt and frustrated about the way the media talks about Lily Allen and her losses. I was pissed off last year when they reported on her 'second miscarriage'. They've have just compounded their insensitivity by reporting on how she has given birth to her 'first child'. No! It's not her first child! She's lost two children before! Just because they died, it doesn't mean they no longer count! I can't remember the details of her first loss but her second was at 6 months (absolutely not a miscarriage).
AM I too close to the issue to look at this objectively? I Dora little inside when anyone refers to my daughter as my 'first' or 'only' child. How must Lily be feeling?
Am I being unreasonable?

I don't like that they say she had a miscarriage at 6 months, the baby was still born, she had to give birth to him as she would a live baby.

But this is not the day to discuss the past.

She had her baby girl yesterday so I'm sure she's absolutely thrilled today and probably won't have time to read the papers as she'll be staring at her newborn daughter (been there)

Referring to her stillbirth as a miscarriage annoys me too.

As did a newspaper article referring to Florence Cameron as David and Samantha Cameron's 'third child'.

If a baby can survive from 21 weeks, surely that is the "viable" age? Its the limit the doctors will try to save them from, isnt it? And anything from when they could be born alive should be classed as stillbirth?

(remember reading in a magazine before about a woman whose baby was born alive at 20+6 and the doctors wouldnt try to save it :()

I would say it annoys me mildly, but maybe as its never happened to me I don't feel the anger and hurt as much as others? I think its incredibly disrespectful to call it a miscarriage if the powers that be have issued birth/death certificates etc.,

She lost her baby and whether it was at 6 weeks of six months its her loss, her grief and pain and if SHE is angered about how she is described she should be granted right to reply.

I don't much like Lily Allen, never really have, I don't dislike her either, but I am happy for her that she now has had a successful pregnancy and if I bumped into her in the street I'd wish her all the best.

I do think it is important that the press use the correct terminology. Although I don't like grief competitions a MC is different from a MMC which is again different from a stillbirth which is different again from a live birth who doesn't survive. They are different. I'm pretty sure though that all women who've experienced a loss of any kind all feel a pain I wouldn't wish on anyone.

YANBU OP.

Op, I agree with you - I have posted twice, did you see my first post?

I thought that Lily Allen's MC was an early one. She had it around the time that I had mine, iirc. I could be wrong of course, as it was a few years ago and obviously I don't know her or follow her career that closely.

What I was trying to say, at the risk of sounding insensitive, was that many people don't include early (under 12 weeks) miscarriages as babies, which I can understand, but yes it annoys me also that they say that her first baby was a miscarriage. It must hurt her terribly to read that, although I imagine that she tries to stay away from the press.

For clarification, I'm not suggesting the child she miscarried should be 'tallied' among her other children. I think most people would agree it would be ridiculous to expect all people to count their miscarriages along with their children. That is not commonplace. It is, however, commonplace (and often terribly important) for parents who have suffered a stillbirth to count their lost child along with their living children. I realise one commenter has said that she doesn't and that is absolutely her choice. I may be wrong, but I believe a person who does count their lost child could be more offended and hurt by having their lost child disregarded, than a person who doesn't would be at having them counted (which is unlikely to happen anyway). Perhaps the previous poster will come back and confirm or deny my assertion from her own perspective.

Beyond, viability begins at 24 weeks because that is when it is commonly agreed a baby has a good likelihood of surviving birth. Their chances are slim, but are still there. Before 24 weeks, a baby isn't expected to survive birth. The reason that some do is because gestation is estimated and by no means accurate. I believe the babies who survive from below 24 weeks are more likely to actually be 24 weeks or extremely exceptional. They are not the rule of thumb. The viability date also ties in with a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy below 24 weeks.
With regard to medical help issued to pre-24 weekers, I believe the official line is that 24weekers are helped, 23 - 23+6ers are helped if the parents request it and 22+6 and unders are left to the doctor's discretion and judgement.

YANBU Lily hates it too and has tweeted about it in the past.

Thanks Lunatic. I totally respect her decision not to include her loss when counting her children; I'd like to make that clear.

Sorry OP, I thought you were saying that I was lacking understanding about stillbirth and I don't think you were which was why I posted my last post, which now sounds rude as it says pretty much the same as my previous post I didn't mean it to be. Sorry!

Thanks SantieMaggie, I knew she had commented in the past about how it hurt her bit couldn't remember where. I wonder if that changes the opinions of those who think this is unreasonable. She is hurt by it herself, as are many others in similar situations. There's no good reason for their lazy and insensitive reporting and I still haven't been convinced about just why my upset at this is unreasonable.

No harm done WanderingSheep.

Sorry, I hope I didn't come across as insensitive to those mourning stillborn babies? I simply meant it was easier for me to think of my own 20 week miscarriage as a miscarriage (which it technically was), maybe it pyschologically helped me move on?

I totally respect other peoples' views though - of course, it is just very personal.

I have three children.

Two of them are dead.

One died at 22 weeks into my pregnancy and is not medically classed as a stillbirth because he was born two weeks before the cut off point. However I had a nine hour labour to give birth to him and he has a grave and I always describe him as stillborn.

One was born at 22+3 week and died two hours after she was born. I had a fourteen hour labour with her. She shares a grave with her brother.

One is, thankfully, alive and healthy.

Those of you who suggest he is my first child, simply because he is my only living child are wrong (wrong at best, at worst I can't think of words to describe your insensitivity and cruelty). He is my third child.

Both of my lost children were born in second try and didn't just vanish in a puff of smoke. They existed, I miss them and I still grieve for both of them every single day. They have names. I love them.

I can't believe that the first responses on this thread are suggesting the OP is being unreasonable and talking about splitting hairs.

I have never met Lily Allen but I have met my fair share of insensitive people who think the word 'miscarriage' is a cover-all word for any lost baby.

I've actually had a midwife call my losses "miscarriages" and I can't tell you how wrong that is or how hurtful, especially when my daughter was born alive for gods sake. If a professional can call a premature baby a miscarriage then something is very, very wrong. And the press getting it wrong influences the way the general public think of it.

So seeing the press calling stillbirths a miscarriage does upset me even though I don't personally know the people they are talking about. Because they are wrong and because indirectly they are talking about me and my child.

When my son was stillborn I had a woman tell me that her friend "lost a real baby and got over it", so she knew I would get over losing mine.

I'll tell you this, when you have been through a loss like this, when you have been in labour for hours and given birth to a baby you know is already dead it's not "splitting hairs" to want that baby to be acknowledged as stillborn no matter if your child was born at 22 weeks or 24, just so some bureaucrat can tick a box. Your child is stillborn and if anyone is splitting fucking hairs it's the people arguing that Lily Allen's baby and mine should be referred to as miscarriages and that it doesn't matter if people get it wrong.

I have also been shocked to see Lily Allen's loss of her baby described a a "miscarriage". I've had miscarriages - they were at 7 and 8 weeks and felt like heavy periods. When your pregnancy ends at 24 weeks, you give birth to a baby, as NoOnesGoingToEatYourEyes has just described. It is a stillbirth, not a miscarriage.

I guess we are less used to losing children than in the past. My mum was the rare one in her family who hadn't had any miscarriages or still births. My Grandmother gave birth 12 times, 4 still born/died in birth, 1 died at 2, and 1 died as a teenager. I have no idea how many miscarriages she might have had.

I always thought of my mum as 1 of 6 because I didn't know all the details of the other births until I was 18. My mum thinks of herself as 1 of 8, because she knew the 2 children that died at 2 and teenage years. My grandmother would never talk about 'those sorts of things' so I have no idea how she viewed it - but given that her whole life was incredibly hard I suspect she just refused to think about it.

GreyGardens, I hope you don't think I was suggesting you are insensitive for feeling that way about your own loss. I believe it is up to each individual how they wish to acknowledge their losses. What I meant was that it is more common for someone to want their loss child acknowledged, than it is to not want it. Also, I believe the hurt caused by not acknowledging it to someone who does acknowledge it themselves is possibly greater than for someone like yourself to have your loss acknowledged in that way. I could be wrong and it could indeed feel devastating to you for someone to say you have two children rather than one, but as I, myself, feel tormented by having my first child disregarded, I suppose I naturally assume that must be more hurtful. I hope that makes sense and (before anyone suggests it) I am not implying there is some form of hierarchy or competition for grief. This isn't about grief felt at the loss of a child, it's about how we cope with how others respond to it.

NoOnes, thank you for your account of your perspective. You described your experiences as similar to my own and demonstrated, better than I could, how hurtful and unnecessary these comments can be. Best wishes.

NoOnesGoingToEatYourEyes, I am sorry for your losses.
However, I wouldn't want my miscarriage to be referred to as a stillbirth, even though I gave birth at 20 weeks. It would probably have made me feel worse, actually. That's all I'm saying - that not everybody feels the same.
I do know how it feels, but I choose to think of it as a miscarriage. And I feel so grateful to have my dd (born after the miscarriages), and feel I wouldn't have her otherwise, so I view it in a positive way, if that makes any kind of sense? But this is me, I would never presume to speak for how you or anyone else feels.

TTNW, X posts, I see your point, I acknoweldge I'm probably in the minority, and am sorry for how this has made you and others feel.

I've cross-posted with you GreyGardens. Thank you for explaining. Sorry for assuming it might not be as painful to have your miscarriage referred to as a stillbirth. I respect that it can be just as painful as the opposite is to me. But I think we would probably both agree that you might not feel upset at Lily's stillborn baby being referred to as such but that it does hurt myself and others like myself.
Also, I don't think you are 'uncommon' per se. I have a friend who's baby was born at 24+1 and was upset that she had to register him - she'd have preferred he was born sooner so he could have been 'miscarried'.

I think YABU to expect the press to use anything other than shorthand for how they describe people- regardless of what they have been through. Perhaps you could write to the editor with your point of view.

Your experiences were awful, as were Lily Allen's. In my first post I did not realise she had lost a baby so late so apologies if I offended anyone

Can I ask a genuine question to those of you who have lost children- is it not dreadfully hard always explaining your situation to anyone who asks how many children you have? Or do you prefer to explain?

NoOnesGoingToEatYourEyes & ThisTimeNextWeek , I am genuinely sorry for your losses, and support your need to have your children acknowledged. The same goes for Lily Allen and anyone else of course...

ThisTimeNextWeek thankyou for being so gracious; I probably haven't explained myself very well, and do agree how hurtful it would feel for you and others. Honestly, it doesn't feel as painful for me to have my late miscarriage referred to as a stillbirth, as it would the other way round for you, but I just choose not to think of it that way myself. I am rambling, sorry!

Cybbo for me, I would just say I have one child, if the conversation was appropriate I would also explain that I'd had miscarriages, one late.