To wonder whether the people in my office who think it's pointless striking....

[RedHotPokers]

...that its selfish and stupid, as the country is broke and we should be happy to have a job, will still take any financial improvement should the strike succeed?

People at my work are not striking but are counting on others to change things

Drives me mad!

The people in your work sound sensible. The country is broke and it's going to get a lot worse. If you have a job, hold on to it and don't even DREAM of a payrise.

PS I bet you are about 24. Correct? You ain't seen nothing yet.

OhSuzanna, I'm going to have to beg to differ here, the economic situation is no reason to roll over and allow this government to stiff us. I'm public sector (but not one of those involved in the Nov 30th strike) and we have just balloted on strike action because our management have suggested a 20% pay cut while 530 senior managers still get an annual car allowance of £5000 a year. There is plenty of money in this country. Granted, not as much as before, but there is no reason for the poorer paid workforce to be shafted by the better paid.

And I'm 41, work in an area where I know exactly how bad it is. I know just how much worse it's going to get. We're facing 10 years of crap, and we have to fight now to stop losing our jobs and our pay otherwise those 10 years will be some of the shittiest yet.

Same where I work people not supporting the strike and there's a really uncomfortable atmosphere at the moment between those not striking and those that are, dont know how things will be the same again.

I've literally just posted on another thread - I felt very strongly that to take strike action was wrong - so I made the decision to leave the union.
I think it is immoral to take the good work that the union do you, but not support them through the tough decisions, however I do not personally agree that a strike will make any change to the financial situation of this country. I made the only decision that I felt was the 'right' one.

By a huge coincidence, the strike is happening on my day off (I only get one weekday off a fortnight) so nobody would know if I was on strike or not - but I had to follow my heart.

Headfairy, I don't think you do realise how bad the situation is. The UK has the BIGGEST OVERALL DEBT IN THE WORLD.

You are not fighting about losing your jobs (yet). That fight is still to come. I think you all need to get a grip on reality.

UK has biggest debt

Most people in the private sector are being stiffed left, right and centre. For example, I get zero pension contributions from my employer. Zero. And although my pay is going up again now, there has been a pay freeze in my firm, plus redundancies. So when I hear public sector complaints about pensions and demands for huge pay rises from e.g. the tube drivers I tend to have little sympathy.

OhSuzanna I most definately do. I work with a rather well known financial reporter.

OhSuzanna Just had a look at that link. Of course, a lot of that is publicised debt. Did you for example know that a well known French bank has declared Eur10bn sovereign debt but has actually nearer Eur60bn, most of it in Italian bonds. They are way more fucked than we are. That's not to say we're in a comfortable position though. Things are going to be very very very tricky. Never mind the moral argument about raising the pension age, anyone who's in their 30s and 40s now had better get used to the idea of working well in to their 70s, because that's what the majority of us are going to have to do. But, we do have to protect what we've got now. We won't get it back when the good times roll around again. They'll be gone for good.

anyway, the Americans have waaaay more debt than we do but then they also have the worlds largest economy.

You can't compare our debt levels with those of Italy or Spain, we have a much bigger economy. The City alone whumps Spain's economy, never mind the rest of the country.

I did a 'professional' job for over 25 years. I got pay which was tiny, and now I'm 65 I do it for nothing. I get the minimum Retirement Pension and have to pay full whack for everything. What did I have the temerity to do? I was a Carer for my disabled son. No chance of me going on strike!

Headfairy. Look at the graphs. They show a percentage. Think again about what you are saying.

OhSuzanna that link you have posted suggests we have the most debt due to business and bank debt though, not government debt?

seems other people think differently

OhSuzanna - I am not 24, I'm 35 and come from an area and a background where it has been common for the last 30- 40 years to be totally shafted by the goverment, where poverty is WAY above the UK average, and unemplyement is very high.

This us and them (public vs private) attitude that the Govt are encouraging is to their advantage big time. The well paid are getting more and more so, whilst the lower paid are being hit again and again. But its okay because the country is soooooooooo poor. We should all be soooooo grateful, and take whatever crumbs are thrown at us.

and again

oooh look, there we are again, number 23 on the list

this is from Wiki so you know... meh

Ask your colleagues if they have ever taken any paid holiday or maternity leave.

Then ask them how they think that came about.

Put far more succinctly than I ever could.

Tethers - Didn't a big group of nice senior executives decide we could have those out of the goodness of their hearts? Oh no... I'm getting them mixed up with the nice senior executives that sit on remuneration committees and give themselves fat pay rises and benefits out of the goodness of their hearts.

Seriously, do people not understand what the unions have achieved for ALL workers (not just their members)?

Headfairy - I'm off now. Have an important meeting to go to however I do trust you will look at my graph again. TOTAL DEBT. Not public debt. TOTAL. TOTAL. Do you understand??

I'll spell it out quickly. Not only government debt. TOTAL DEBT.

Yes I do understand the difference, I appreciate it's total debt. I can't see any sources on that graph though so I'm struggling to work out what business and bank debt are.

I still can't see any sources on that graph, though the comments are interesting reading. I take your point about total debt.

That said, going back to the op, the problem that I have as an individual is that the terms and conditions of my original employment are being changed without my consultation. My employer is the first British employer (I'm fairly sure, but do correct me if I'm wrong) to retrospectively take away a pension scheme. At the time of my employment I was told our salaries are much lower than the private sector in the same industry because to work where I work is a "vocation". That is true, everyone here is dedicated to what we do and believe passionately in it and accept that pay below the industry average is the price we pay (if I were to work with one of our nearest competitors I would be earning £20k a year more). The pension was considered to be our compensation for a lifetime of low pay. Now that is being taken away from us. I have paid in to it for 20 years and now "pouff" it's gone. No choice, no consultation. We're currently challenging it through the courts as the union doesn't think it's even legal to change someone's contract without consultation.

It's a total betrayal, made so much worse by the 20% pay cut while senior managers get £5000 a year towards running their cars. They are cutting from the bottom up, from the people who have the least. Unison and Unite represent some of the lower paid workers in society, the ones who need protecting most.

Let me make one more point... economic growth is very very closely linked to social mobility. Currently social mobility is at it's lowest since WW2. I know we're all going to hell in a handcart, but someone has to make the right decisions to help us recover when the recovery does come. Making the poor poorer is not the right decision.