to think that being anti bullfighting can never be due to having a closed mind???

[wondering2]

Which is what my aunt (with whom I get on very well) suggested in a phone conversation tonight. I did manage to say that I thought "having a closed mind" has got nothing to do with it and a little more but we couldn't let the conversation carry on any further because there was nowhere for it to go other than having an argument.
Both my Dad and my Aunt have seen bullfighting (in France) and my Dad especially, loves it . I didn't realise that my Aunt obviously enjoys it too .
I did manage to say that as a vegetarian I don't think animals should be killed, and that even if I was a meat eater, I would probably object to the voyeuristic and brutal way in which the bull is killed. My aunt didn't say anything apart from her comment about having a closed mind - this wasn't about me personally but about my sister's dp being against bullfighting, which is how the conversation started in the first place.

YANBU

Anyone who can sit and be 'entertained' by animals being wound up and tortured is pretty sick imo.

My MIL is Spanish and her whole family are against it, despite being taken to bull fights as a young child.

YANBU - it's brutal, unnecessary and disgusting. The 'closed mind' comment sounds like your typical cultural relativism that's used to excuse all sorts of nasty and immoral practices.

Well the entire Spanish region of Catalonia must be closed minded then, as it has recently banned bullfighting, calling it outdated and barbaric.

YANBU

Yanbu!

yanbu.

Tho' I have a feeling the French version isn't the same as Spanish, ie no spears & not killed. But I may be wrong, and it may be equally sickening.

Whilst not being a fan personally, I recently heard an interview with the English bull-fighter Frank Evans 'El Ingles'. I was very struck by his obvious passion/obsession for the sport and description of the artistry and athleticism involved. I think it's quite possible not to agree with the practice and at the same time have an 'open mind' to what it is that others might see in it. Maybe that's what your aunt is referring to.

I'm pretty sure like mumblechum that the bull is killed outside of the ring in France (makes it no better though)
The Spanish national channel used to have it on every afternoon but even they stopped broadcasting live fights a few years ago.

It is good to have an open mind - but not so open that your brain falls out.

Bullfighting is indefensible savagery.

I'm no animal lover but I can't think of a single point in favour of bullfighting.

I would be in favour of bullfighting, if it involved a healthy undrugged bull and one man put in a empty barn together, if he's got a fetish for fighting bulls, so be it.

I feel the same about lion hunting, great if it is a naked man with just a spear (he has to make himself).

Other than that YANBU.

I would suggest that your aunt knew she was defending the indefensible. An accusation of "having a closed mind" cannot be countered directly, but can only be argued against by asking the person making the accusation to explain what they mean by it; and then picking that apart for them.

The fact that it is outdated and barbaric means that there was a time and a place when it was ok. But not now.
Society has moved on, we dont live in a barbaric world any more. Maybe your aunt wants to live in that type of world, next time you see her, set the dogs on her

What birds said about brains falling out. I can't think of a single arguement for bullfighting.

Oh well, here goes the arguments for:

The bullfighting breed bulls (and indeed the cows and calves) have wonderful lives. Because their condition is paramount for successfully breeding magnificent animals. Pampered, cossetted, free to exhibit natural herd behaviours, extremely high welfare standards. Better than typical beef cattle and compared to your average dairy cow... well, I don't know where to start in discussing how harsh the lives of dairy cattle can be.

The way I look at it, if you are strongly against bullfighting then you should be staunchly vegan, too; a huge number of cows have terrible lives to provide us with cheap milk products. Else it's rank hypocrisy.

I myself drink cow's milk and I don't endorse bullfighting. But I can't understand how people get so het up over a relatively tiny number of bulls dying a rough (and maybe quite brief) death after a wonderful life, whilst shrugging off the very vast numbers of dairy cows living truly harsh lives for years and years (except the vast majority of boy calves being "humanely" bolted

YANBU.

Stand against bullfighting, and if you're concerned about diary products then buy RSPCA Freedom Food products.

YANBU Bull fighting is cruel and unecessary

It is very exciting to watch.

I'm with ragged on this. (and when I lived in Spain, back when dinosaurs roamed) I was vegetarian. Go figure.

I'm not pro-bullfighting at all. But (apparently, according to Giles Coren, who I rather embarassingly have a bit of a thing about) the bulls live wonderful lives up to the moment of the bullring. Which of course, in no way justifies them being killed for entertainment purposes.

But how can we stand up load and proud and condemn that, whilst continuing to eat intensively farmed meat?? Eating my steak isn't entertaining, but I don't need it to live any more than I need to go and watch a bullfight do I?

It's not a million miles from Saint Jamie and Slightly lesser Saint Hugh's proposal that we start eating veal again. Which is morally better/worse? Shooting a male calf because we have no use for it because we don't eat veal, or rearing it for a while and then serving it up on a plate?

I don't know what the answer is, I don't and won't eat veal and have no intention of watching a bullfight. But it's not a totally black and white argument morally.

I'd never go and see it myself but I can't feel that it's my business if the people of another country choose to allow it.

Hi all

Thanks for your thoughts. I particularly like the brain falling out analogy .

I know about the "artistry" as my dad has spoken about it - but I wasn't about to start discussing that with my aunt yesterday so don't know if she assumed I didn't know this and was taking the "intellectually more experienced and knowing" position.

I hadn't thought about "cultural relativism" and that is an interesting point. I suppose this ties in with not criticising what people in another country are doing. I don't see it this way - we are citizens of the world and have thoughts / opinions about what goes on everywhere - and the responsibility to express them / do something about them if necessary. Added to this I don't feel that Spain and France are far away or "different" - I am half English, half Italian and grew up in Belgium so consider myself a citizen of Europe (this is irrelevant, but it is possible that my Aunt views these countries as being more "foreign" than I do).

I didn't know that up to the moment of their death (probably years before they would die naturally however), bulls have such a nice life. I still don't think that gives us the right to play "god" and decide when their time has come, or to kill them for our entertainment.

I'm vegetarian but agree that I should be vegan - I don't drink cow milk (apart from in cappucinos and hot chocolates when out ) but I do eat yoghurt and cheese - and of course products with milk in them. I try to buy organic cheese and yoghurt in the hope that these cows are treated better and that it is healthier. However I am not actively helping the cause of suffering dairy cows and could do more. I didn't know about RSPCA "Freedom From" products and am going to find out.

I particularly agree with Birdsgottafly when she/he says that bull fighting would be okay if "it involved a healthy undrugged bull and one man put in a empty barn together, if he's got a fetish for fighting bulls, so be it"!

Thanks for all your thoughts . (Don't think I could set the dogs on my Aunt (!) but this wasn't something we could have had a long conversation about with arguing. I suppose she was defensive about being indirectly criticsed and I was defensive at being indirectly told I had a closed mind!!

WITHOUT arguing