to confront my mother about this?

[rocksandhardplaces]

I am currently pregnant and having a hard time... had anxiety/depression in my last pregnancy and have sought help this time.

Counselling has made me realise the extent to which I was neglected in my childhood, and.. yes, abused.

My father is an alcoholic and I have had counselling/group therapy over the years about this and am pretty well aware of what it did and the coping mechanisms it produced, and have dealt with much of this. However, this pregnancy for the first time I really realise that my father has been the focus for years when in some ways my mother was worse. I have spent years convincing myself my mother was great and the rock that helped us flourish.. but..

it's not true.

When they split, she basically went AWOL. I was 11 and left in sole charge of my 4 year old sister 6/7 nights a week, cooking Findus crispy pancakes and going to sleep in my uniform with a knife under my pillow because I was so scared. There was often no food in the house, which was a tip unless we cleaned it... there were all sorts of things thathappened.

But more than this, she did some weird stuff. She is a teacher and when we went on holiday when I was 11, she took a 12 year old girl from school as her "friend" on holiday. I still don't know how a) she got away with this, what the hell were this girl's parents thinking!!!! and b) why she would have done that, it was such an immense rejection of me at that time in my life.

I want to know why.. but I know that she would flip if we talked about it.. her attitude is the past is the past.. and we superficially get on amazingly now, and have a very "normal" mother/daughter relationship.. but it makes no sense to me.. why would you befriend a girl a year older than your daughter when you had no time for them at all? Why would you take her on holiday? How did NOBODY see how weird this was? How did she get away with just totally neglecting my sister and I???

I want to know, but I don't know what I will get out of it. I don't know if it will make any difference. I have mentioned it to her before.. but it has always been a no go area as a subject...

AIBU?

Is it me, or is there a massive elephant in the room here (or on this thread even) It sounds like a wholly inappropiate thing to do, to take an unrelated child on holiday for what purpose??? If your father had taken this girl away we would all be saying it loud and clear- did something go on between them?? I am sorry if this is hurtful to hear, but it sounds like your mother was actually in a very difficult place at the time and seems her sense of what was right or wrong may well have become very confused- no wonder she does not want to talk about it.

I would love to just get on and think of the future and give my children the childhood I would have wanted RedHelenB, but I've spent my entire adult life pretending nothing bad ever happened at home and it has led to me developing OCD behaviours, anxiety and depression. Part of giving my children the childhood I would have wanted is to work out WHAT THE HELL was going on because in rationalising what has happened, I have excused it and there is always a danger when that happens that you accidentally repeat patterns because things that are really really wrong seem acceptable.

One of the fundamental stories in our household was that forgiveness (of my father) was everything. Bear no resentment, no anger, no shame. Really what this meant was: don't feel bad when people fuck you around. Just get on with it and "forgive". I spent my life thinking it was terribly admirable how "well" my mother dealt with the divorce because she didn't get angry/bad mouth him/have arguments with him. Instead she just disappeared and neglected us instead.

This came up with the counsellor and - this is how fucked up things were - I never considered it was abnormal to go to sleep in your uniform with a knife under your pillow or to have my seven year old sister grilling sausages while I cleaned the bathroom at 11. It never occurred to me that my mother was also letting us down when she put us in my father's car every weekend even though he had arrived blind drunk, when we would have to try to steer as he fell asleep at the wheel. It was always his fault, the rest of it was just because of him. When I was doing my A-levels, she went away for work for two weeks and my father came to live with us. Never once did I question why she couldn't be around for my exams and why she thought it was okay for me to spend them with a drunk, knowing the stress that caused.

Forgive her, unconditionally? And say "yeah, you shit all over me mother but it's alright now because you buy my kids nice toys and hey, I probably deserved it anyway?". I've tried the "forgiveness" feel no anger, feel no hurt, pretend it all didn't happen, denial route and it doesn't work. I need to sort this stuff out so I don't become her without realising it. My kids deserve that.. but so do I.

Of course you can't just forgive and move on.

You had a crap childnood which is having an impact on your mh now. Unfortunately you can't force your mum to explain herself, apologise and ask forgiveness, but you may be able to hold her to account (if you wish)

If her activities with this girl were unlawful instead of just inappropriate there is the possibility of crimimal investigation which may bring you some 'closure'. The fallout could be devastating for the family but you are being devastated now by your mums refusal to acknowledge the past.
A huge step so not one to take without professional advice

Do you have any contact with this girl?

No, no contact. I presume she is married now so don't even know how I would track her down. It makes me shudder to think of anything inappropriate. I don't think so.. but what would I know? I think it's more likely that she regressed so much that she preferred the company of kids but in a non-responsible role. My sister and I were talking about her behaviour yesterday and I think she had been so caught up in beng responsible when married to my father that when he left she just literally became like a teenager and wanted nothing to do with being grown-up. This doesn't rule out there being anything nefarious of course.. but it seems less likely to me than my mother just deciding she'd had enough of adult life.

I did have a friend with me on the holiday, we are still friends now.. and I might ask her what her memories of it are as someone who was an outsider. My sister is 7 years younger than me so she doesn't really recall it at all as she would only have been 4.

It's all pretty hazy to be honest.

I will talk to the counsellor though I am not seeing her again until December, as it is NHS. I got squeezed in when there were no appointments before January because I was in so much distress so won't have regular appointments until January.. so want to be careful.. as I am unpicking a massive scab here and I don't know where it's going to go, and I am pregnant and don't want to just lose it if it all comes out too far too fast.

Perhaps that is as good a reason as any not to talk to my mother next weekend.. just do business as usual. But I wonder if I will be able? Aaarrgh!

If you do see your mum you could avoid anything that might be perceived as crtiicism of her but ask about this girl in an 'I'm struggling to understand why she was treated as an adult' way?

Be persistent. Stay calm, can you think of any way to suggest that giving you the truth is the best option for your mum?

In order for your relationship to have any future your mother has to explain the past ,she has to put you first. It's all very well for her to have put the past behind her and function as an adult now but you are suffering and it's her fault. She has no right to a relationship with you or her future Grandchild until the past is resolved.

I think at the moment the hard part is that this is stuff I haven't really had in my conscious mind, well.. ever. It's like I am playing a massive join-the-dots and am seeing things I never really saw before. My sister and I have never spoken about this stuff before this weekend, and like someone said upthread, she remembers stuff I had forgotten e.g. that when my mother and I would fight e.g. when I was 11, 12 or 13 she would get into the car and drive off for hours and I would run to the door and shout "I love you" because I was afraid she would die.

I suppose maybe I am beginning to think that there is too much to confront her with for me to handle it without more counselling.

Rock, you are right. I agree that there is too much to confront her with, for now anyway.

I would strongly recommend that you talk more with your counsellor. Is there anyway at all you might be able to go private for therapy? I only mention this just in case. NHS are all about a 6 week stint arnt they? I think you need more time and space to think and talk.

When significant things like this come up its important to work through it, and find out how you feel about it, then and now.
Sounds like you need some very good support and assistance as you travel though these new memories.

Rock I don't have personal experience of the devastating childhood you do, but my dh was emotionally abused by his dad so have some experience through him of trying to come to terms with it. He has recently confronted his Dad about some of this but while his dad listened (didn't have a lot of choice as it was during a hospital interview with a psychiatrist after dh dad tried to kill himself) he has never apologised or acknowledged what dh said other than to send an email about hoping they can build bridges. This actually hurt dh even more initially but it has helped him to draw a line under it all and move forward.

I think the advice to have a good think about what you want to get out of this is spot on. I totally understand why you feel that you need to have this conversation with your Mum but think through some of the possible outcomes and how you might deal with them. Of course she may surprise you and be open and honest but the more likely scenario is she will either refuse to engage on this with you or will fob you off. Think about how you will respond in these situations so that you feel in control and are not wrong footed by her.

If you are in the North East pm me as I have contact details for a support group for survivors of childhood abuse that I could share with you to get some support before your counselling kicks in. if you are not there may be similar local to you. There is also the 'Stately Homes' thread on relationships which has others who have had abusive and otherwise difficult childhoods so you may find some support there.

Good luck x

Stately Homes Thread

Rocks, you've mentioned how memories are only surfacing when triggered by your sister's - I would presume that your mother's memories are similarly 'inaccessible' on a day-to-day basis. Added to her 'the past is past' insistence (because at some deeper level she must know the past is a can of worms) I can see how the 'superficially amazing' relationship could come into being.

But it is so obviously causing you such pain. You cannot pretend (because it would be a pretence now) that everything's OK when she visits. I really think you should follow ImperialBlether's advice of Sat 19-Nov-11 11:11:53, and write her a letter. Maybe include a few details in the hope that they will trigger her memories as they have yours, and pave the way for real conversation. Or postpone her visit until you have had more counselling. Her reaction to a letter or postponement is irrelevant in comparison to your mental health.

Her reaction to a letter or postponement is irrelevant in comparison to your mental health

This. With bells on.

My experience of bringing this stuff up though, in terms of my father where there has been ULTRA confronting/discussion/reconciliations/rationalisations etc over the years is that it doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans. My father, having been through rehab etc for years, is quite open to listening to you talk about feelings in relation to his drunken/unpredictable/irrational behaviour and will have listened carefully and sincerely to long drawn out accounts with tears and weeping etc, and apologised most profoundly etc and he will have meant every word of it from the depths of his soul... and yet, nothing ever changed. A period of sobriety, reconciliation.. then a repeat. I don't trust that discussing these things with the person causing you pain really can bring any closure because that's never how it's been for me.

My feelings are, the more I think as I have contributed to this thread, that this Oprahesque confrontational stuff a) doesn't take the pain of what happened away, b) doesn't make you feel any better, even when it is done with mutual agreement and what you have said is heard and appreciated c) apologies don't mean the behaviour patterns won't be repeated. This isn't a soap opera and she is unlikely to break down and apologise and even if she does, she will continue to be dismissive and absent when I need her most. I have a child for a mother, she will still be a child whether I talk to her about this or not. The loss is that I don't have a mother who is adult and sensible and rational.

What I need to learn to do is to live with the fact this happened to me and, as an adult, to appreciate that it was insufficient and that I learned some unhelpful coping strategies along the way. I also have to remember and to deal with the sense of shame I have about it all.

It's funny but I have done all of this to death in relation to my father, so I understand why people say "forgive, move on, appreciate what you have". Confronting the past is a thankless, endless task with no specific end. It is a lifelong project.. and in my heart, I know my mother won't engage with me on this. I understand why people who are bereaved avoid counselling sometimes because they understand that it won't bring the person back and sometimes it seems like picking at an open sore. Confronting my mother will freak her out and she will do anything necessary to deny it. So the question is, what do I get out of confronting it, even if I want to? I would like answers but I know she won't, and probably can't, give them to me. So what I get in real terms is a weekend of tears and crying and feeling lost and abandoned all over again, reliving the cycle. She will go home, slot back into her rampant denial of everything and I will be depleted, exhausted and find everyday tasks difficult for weeks after it happens.

I understand why people say take action. I might say it to someone else. But the emotional cost of maintaining the lie is actually less extreme in the short-term than confrontation, and I wonder if things are stable enough for me to do that right now, especially given the pregnancy which has been complicated etc. I probably do need to get some therapy to explore it all before I confront her because even though I pretty much know how it will go down, it will shatter me. And I need to be able to live and be a mother myself RIGHT NOW.

She's flying in next week. Asking her to postpone would create ructions, absolute ructions.. and that is just as stressful as just letting her come and trying to stay out of anything that will trigger anything painful. I will think about emailing her.. but I need to think carefully about it and what will come from it.

Thanks for these responses. It is helping me think more clearly about things.

I really wouldn't let her come without warning her that you have been thinking a lot about your childhood. You might find she decides to stay away. If so I'd see that as a good result.

It's normal to think about your own childhood when you are pregnant. You're thinking about what kind of mum you will be and the main reference point is your own mum.

I'm not convinced talking to someone about their abuse of you will bring you peace. I can see why it would be terrifying to do, anyway, because you risk hearing things that will make you feel even worse.

If you feel awful when she's staying with you, is there any way you could stay with your sister?

How is your partner with this?

My partner is pretty good, he has been around since I was very young and is very "normal", came from a very normal loving home etc and he says he remembers when he first met me and spent time in my house (my sister was only 13 then!) how lonely we seemed. We had a chat yesterday and he said that he was surprised I didn't realise how bad it was as he has kind of known for years from piecing together all our "funny stories" about times we were alone etc, and it was glaringly obvious to him that she had let my dad care for us when she shouldn't have, was "missing" at key moments. He pointed out that my dad was the one to help me find accommodation in university and was there when I did exams because my mother was inexplicably away for all of these things even though she knew that he would drink and that it would be terrible for us. He always found it odd that she let him continue to see so much of us given how awful he was and he said I've never shared a happy memory that has my mother in it. There really aren't any.

My sister and I both feel that if we were to say anything to her, her response would be that we were trying to hurt her, followed by denial and/or outrage and trying to dismiss or minimise it.

But I will email her. I just don't know yet what I'll say.

That is incredibly sad and I am so glad you have such a perceptive partner.

Can I ask you whether you'd be happier if you stopped seeing her altogether? How does your sister feel? Is she as unhappy as you about your mum? She and your partner seem to be your real family now. Can you imagine what it would be like for you (not for your mum) if you stopped all contact? Would you be happier or less happy?

I know this isn't really very MN but ((((((((here's a big hug))))))))

It breaks my heart to see my dh going through all of this and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Thinking of you and fingers crossed that whatever you decide it helps you (eventually) to come to terms with what happened and to move forward. All the best for your future