To think someone saying your hair is exotic & wanting to touch it is not racist?

[BoobleBeep]

I'm wondering about this, I have tried to link the articale by Hannah Pool in Grazia but can't find it online.

It was an article on casual racism in the UK and she cited an incident where she had been in the womens toilets and a white women had said how beautiful and exotic her hair was and asked if she could touch it (whilkst reaching out and touching it), Hannah Pool said no you can't and teh women said she was rude.

I lived in Japan for years and had blonde hair back then. Lots of people saidhow exotic my hair was and people liked to touch it sometimes, it didn't bother me at all. My daughter is mixed race and has gorgeous very thick black hair and I love touching it as it is so different to my own.

I wish I shared your faith in how easy it is for people to know what is offensive?

Or do I just have to assume that the daily comments I get are from disablist bigots, fully aware and intending to be offensive?

From Peggy McIntosh's checklist of white privilege in 'White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack' (1988)- a bit un-nuanced, and some things US-specific, but of value. (Whole essay is at nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf )

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area, which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
6. When I am told about our national heritage or about ?civilization,? I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser?s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

10. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of my financial reliability. 11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. 12. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race. 13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial. 14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race. 15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group. 16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world?s majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion. 17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider. 18. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to ?the person in charge,? I will be facing a person of my race. 19. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven?t been singled out because of my race. 20. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children?s magazines featuring people of my race. 21. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared. 22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race. 23. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the place I have chosen. 24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my race will not work against me. 25. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones. 26. I can choose blemish cover or bandages in ?flesh? color and have them more or less match my skin.

Spero - I think that's exactly the point Hannah Pool was trying to make

• that people may not consider themselves to be disablist or bigoted but that actually some of the crass, insensitive things they come out with show that they are making a whole heap of assumptions about you because you're disabled.

Spero, they may be bigots, or they may just be ignorant.

And of course all of us may have occasional gaffes.

I just don't agree with the idea that it's too hard to keep track of what people might be offended about and so I'm not even going to try.

DS use to get patted on the head all the time by tour groups of Chinese/Japanese tourists. He has big curls. It got to the point when he would see them coming and clamp his arms over his head and laugh.

I would wonder about an adult striking up a conversation with a complete stranger and asking to touch it. Not if they were in the same loos and one complimented the other one.

So probably not racist, but a bit odd.

bohemian, what you are basically saying is that white slavery isn't as bad as black slavery. I disagree.

I think that if you have personally been enslaved, or if it has happened within living memory to your family, then you have a right to still feel affected by it. If you haven't, then it's no more pertinent than me saying that in the past my female ancestors were oppressed, therefore I reserve the right to feel offended by any man who speaks less than 100% carefully to me.

HardCheese, in any place where there is a majority, the people are more likely to meet other people who are part of that majority. I'm pretty sure that all races are represented in our everyday culture and I doubt that banks/shops will refuse credit/service on the grounds of skin colour. I'm also pretty sure that shops stock food from all over the world. Not sure what the point of that list is.

Thank you for posting that list Hard Cheese. There are things most folks take for granted, so they probably aren't aware that some people simply can't.

Stuff about white people being enslaved, the way folks have been treated in other countries or actions of random tourists are red herrings here. You don't have to have the intention to be offensive to actually cause someone pain with your words or actions.

If I stomp on your foot on purpose, it's going to hurt you. If I stomp on your foot by accident, it's still going to hurt you. The important part of that scenario is your experience of my action, not my intention. If I don't listen to your yowls, apologise and take responsibility for being a bit more careful about where and how I trod, then one might start to wonder whether I really care if my actions hurt others.

Same goes with racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

YANBU. For god sake, what's with all this racist shite. Of course it's not.

I showed this thread to a black friend with natural hair and she said if someone asks to touch it she tells them she's a person not an exhibit. Which is true. And there is sadly a long history of black people being treated by whites like the 'other' and like objects and some kind of deviation from the norm, and if you are at all aware of that then I'd expect you to be respectful of the fact that a black/mixed race person might just not want to be treated in that way.

TBH I think wanting to touch a stranger's hair is just weird full stop. In some cultures it's massively rude to touch someone's head!

I specifically said that it was also bad. It does not have the same legacy.

If I meet a black American, most likely his ancestors were slaves. If I meet a white American, the chance that their ancestors were slaves is minuscule.

All slavery is bad, but some types of slavery have had longer-lasting impacts on society. That's all.

And the reason past oppression is pertinent is because people are still being oppressed today. If black people never encountered racism, then yes, I'm sure it would matter a lot less what happened to their ancestors in the past. But the racism they encounter today is a direct result of the past. It can't be separated.

Thing is, if you look at anyone's family tree, there will be a history of oppression, discrimination and general hard times. No one has skirted through history untouched. This will be because of factors including race, gender and poverty, and to a degree affects where that family has ended up in life now. Most people don't even know their own family history. I know a bit about mine and most of my ancestors lives sound bloody awful.

If you met a black American and he was still a slave, then that would be different, but he is no more a slave today, than the white American you meet, is a slave owner. I think that focussing too much on the past victimises people. In this country we are largely on a level playing field. All people face some kind of discrimination and I think the primary factor is poverty, in determining how well your life goes in today's society.

Very few people become better people by being criticised and belittled. To cry 'racism' at someone who offers a compliment is not going to help them understand why they have offended.

If I hear some one called a 'racist' I think this a very serious allegation. If someone called me a racist I would be hurt, then very angry. I would certainly stop trying to engage with that person. I have never in my life tried to hurt, kill, refuse employment or housing to someone on the basis of their race. That is what racism means to me, and I expect I am not alone.

I think it utterly unproductive and unhelpful to start with the nuclear option of 'racist' in this kind of debate. Makes you sound more interested in just promoting an ideology rather than a debate from which people could learn something.

Only read the OP - to me, it doesn't sound racist, but it is certainly rude. I wouldn't want someone asking to touch my hair, but I wouldn't mind if they complimented it verbally - but NO touching!

I think it is extremely rude to touch someones hair.
In also believe that there is a element of 'racism' and when i say racism, i mean the more subtle , ignorant type of racism , the idea that you are different . It' almost like trying to touch an exotic pet

Christine, no. I don't see it.

Someone mentioned upthread, the question 'where are you from originally?

I have had that, and I was born and bred in London. But my heritage isn't British and it shows in my looks. Someone commenting on that isn't saying that I'm not proper British, they are saying thay I don't have typical English looks. That is not racist.

Even if they were saying I wasn't 'proper British', so what? I'm not proper British, and I love that fact! I like being British with a different background. So people can comment on it all they like.

Well, I'm probably coming at this from a different perspective, being American. I don't think we have a level playing field at all and I don't believe all Americans face some kind of discrimination.

I don't think we should focus on the past, but I think we need to acknowledge and understand the past in order to understand the problems we face today.

My friend's husband is black and has long dreads. He and dh find it racist (and extremely patronising and just plain rude) when people touch it say 'oh haven't you got wonderful hair' etc. Both of them are laid back, laugh at life and are not po faced at all, so my view is swayed very much by this.

YABU.

Two of my children were very blonde as toddlers and they have blue eyes, and they were always getting stroked and patted and prodded and cheek-pinched by total strangers whenever we were anywhere where most people were brown and dark haired. We live in the Middle East now, and it happened to my son the other day and he is 12!

Spero, I think you're right in that most people would define racism in that way -- it is, I guess, the traditional interpretation. That has been broadened a bit in more recent times, as there is a better understanding of how harmful unintentional or casual racism is.

I'm personally not very comfortable with white people deciding what racism is, anymore than I would like men to define what misogyny is.

I agree that racist is a very serious allegation, and it's not one I would apply to someone lightly. I might say a particular remark is racist, but I would not say the person making it was racist unless they had a real history of it.

I think there is an increasing number of people who take offence far too easily. It has become almost impossible to point out that somebody's behaviour is racist without them having a completely immature response, being really offended by it and refusing to even contemplate that they should change.

Being a person with racist behaviour is not the same as being a woman, being gay, being black or having a disability. You choose to have racist behaviour and yet the impact of it is mainly experienced by people other than yourself. Being offended when those other people point it out to you is selfish. You can change your own racist behaviour if you listen to other people's perspectives.

Why shouldn't white people as well as black people decide what racism is, bohemian? White people have been the victims of it too.

Havent read whole thread, but just in case no one has suggested it already, I suggest op reads orientalism by Edward said.

It is racist to suggest that White people shouldn't contribute to a definition of racism! (interestingly my iPad keeps capitalising 'white' maybe I have a nazi iPad).

Because surely that is what racism is all about - saying you can't contribute, you don't count because of the colour of your skin??

By all means let us broaden our definitions of racism but NOT if we end up in a situation where someone or something is racist just because someone else believes it to be such. That way lies anarchy.

And btw the distinction between a racist person and a racist act is often not very scrupulously adhered to when the accusations start flying.

And why can't men have a view on misogyny ffs? Presumably a lot of men have mothers, sisters or even female friends.

This is just stupid now.

But there's a difference between having a view and defining -- I was talking about the latter. And to clarify, by 'racism' I meant racism directed at non-white people.

As a white person of course I can have a view on what's racist. But I'm not comfortable with defining racism -- to tell a black person that something really isn't racist, even if they think it is.

And yes, of course men can have a view of misogyny. But I wouldn't want misogyny to be defined solely by men, and if women challenge that definition they are told they are wrong.

This is what has changed in recent years. It's no longer solely up to the majority population to decide what minority populations are allowed to be offended about.

If you think what I'm saying is stupid, that's fine, but I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying.