To suggest that M&S should train their staff to measure bra sizes correctly?

[quietlyafraid]

It would seem that rather a lot of women on here think M&S are rubbish at measuring bra size and that they are responsible for making many women walk around wearing the wrong size bra. Especially since they do not seem capable of stocking a full range of sizes, like other department stores. M&S always had the reputation of being the place to go for underwear, and its SCANDALOUS that they are not not leading the way in proper boobs loving support. If I search my size on their website, I am even directed to bras in the wrong size!

Being told to shove your cleveage into the wrong size has created a situation where women think they are a bigger back size than they actually are. They are responsible for making the lives of women a living hell and suffering in constant strap sliding, wire poking, saggy tits, four boob syndrome, falling out at inappropriate times or other such hardships.

I blame M&S and their terrible measuring. AIBU?! Have you been a victim of the M&S "just shove your bras into the wrong size it'll do" mafia? Have you got measured there only to find out you are a completely different size elsewhere?

Worse still an underclass of unrepresented women are being persecuted for daring to be little. The high street does not seem to recognise that 30 backs are a real size and thinks there is no demand for them. This is despite the fact that a size 8 loosely equates to a 30 inch rib cage. Most places start clothes at size 8, so why do most bras, only start at size 32? And just cos we are small back size does not mean we are all flat chested. We are real people too!

We are fed up of having to hide away and use mail order rather than shop on the high street which stocks next to nothing or is totally sold out anyway. We are fed up of being asked whether a 30 back is even a real size and we are fed up of having a choice of deeply unsexy black or white only by other stores.

And AIBU to ask you all people who got measured at M&S to go and get yourself remeasured at House of Fraser or Debenhams (Especially if you are size 8 or below to see if you are one of us and to join the 30 Back club, to increase demand so we can be better represented on the high street) and force M&S to change their policy on boob shoving and fudging?

First AIBU thread of my own. Hope it is silly and hysterical enough to do MN proud. Seriously though, is M&S bra dept rather shit or not?

They've always got me wrong, going to Debebhams earlier this yr was a revelation!

see, I also thought my 36DD fitted fine. I didn't know any different. I thought it was normal - yes, there was some overspill, but all busty women I knew (who were in badly fitting bras) had that, and my mum was also wearing one with back riding up, so I didn't even think to question.

Only once I've tried my right size I understood how wrong I had been for good 10 years.

My best m and s experience was when pregnant with dd2, went in to get measured (wearing a 38f) and was told I needed a 36dd!!!! Which i tried in and low and behold didnt fit, promptly left and played the guessing game in mothercare. pregnancy is the only time I've had a large band size.

Thanks for the replies - sorry, I went to bed! I have the added complication of having scoliosis so bras are a pain in the arse on my wonky back and strange shoulders, and the bras and straps do ride up and about all over the place. I am a generally a size 8, sometimes 10 (and am 5 ft 7).

Basically, if you measure your boobs in the "new way", are M&S bras out?

good post sansucre!

sansucre, I think you've misread one of my posts. I was saying that if I wore a 32 back bra, it would ride up. But I actually wear a 30 back bra, which fits perfectly. My 34H nursing bras are a different matter though because I couldn't find 32HH or 30J nursing bras for love nor money. I rarely wear them now though.

Aries, I think you're likely to be a 28D assuming the cups of your bras fit well. I would normally say that it should feel really quite tight, but that may be uncomfortable with your scoliosis. If you're wearing the correct band size, there should be very little pressure on your shoulders. I've never found any particular difference in M&S bras compared to all the other brands I've worn, but they don't do my current size so I don't shop for bras there anymore.

The other thing I've discovered since being properly fitted is that the straps are much tighter. I always used to have very long straps and a too wide back which meant the bra sat across my boobs and didn't support them properly. Now I've been measured properly my breasts sit in my bra because the band at the bottom is flush with my rib cage and the straps are short and sit next to my body.

If you can slide a finger easily under the front of the bra, between the cups you're wearing the wrong size.

If your boobs flatten out or hang over at the sides or sit higher in the cup than where the cup would sit if you were wearing a full cup you're wearing the wrong bra.

If you can easily get a finger under the straps next to the cups you're wearing the wrong bra.

If your bra rides up at the back you're wearing the wrong bra.

If the shoulder straps dig in you're wearing the wrong bra.

If you cannot wear your bra without the straps on (because it falls off or pulls your boobs down) you're wearing the wrong bra.

Top tip - when you're pregnant your back size will get bigger due to your rib cage expanding. A bra extender is a very cheap way of making your bras last longer and stop them pinching.

"If you cannot wear your bra without the straps on (because it falls off or pulls your boobs down) you're wearing the wrong bra."
This is only true for smaller boobs.

No it's true for bigger boobs too (am 32E). Obviously you wouldn't wear it like that all day but to test if it fits it works very well. It mainly tests if the back size is correct but also if the cup size is big enough. If it's too big it'll pull your boobs down. If it fits well and your boobs are in the right sized cups it should look like your boobs are full and round like the picture on the box even if you have enormous, floppy boobs.

...the straps should not be doing the majority if the supporting. The main body of the bra should be.

I think it depends on the droop as well. You might just have fine upstanding norks, but post 2 pregnancies and 3 years breastfeeding my 34ff norks are near my waist without a bra. My bra passes all your other criteria.

It should still work. It's about volume. A good bra that's not relying on the straps should lift up your boobs so they look the same in the bra as if they were perky. Is your bra falling off or sliding down? Or just not looking quite as good as when the straps are on?

It should still work. It's about volume. A good bra that's not relying on the straps should lift up your boobs so they look the same in the bra as if they were perky. Is your bra falling off or sliding down? Or just not looking quite as good as when the straps are on?

My bra doesn't slide but my boobs are more saggy without the straps.

My 30J boobs are really quite floppy, but my bras still hold them up without the straps on my shoulders. A completely soft thin bra might not hold them though.

That's a good point aswellasyou. I've stopped wearing soft, fabric bras in favour of something a bit more structured. Its also why I hate jersey nursing bras. They just sort of flop and go baggy which is no good for proper support.

My least supportive bra is this one: www.leialingerie.com/freya/plunge/aa4751.aspx?colour=Blue&outlet=1 but it still passes all the tests although without the straps it's not quite as good as the moulded or more structured bras I own.

I found a lovely bra shop in the Trafford Centre, called Boux Avenue. I said "36F" to them and they didn't bat an eyelid! The entire range was still suitable (they had 30 backs and small cups galore too). On trying out a bra in 36F, it was clear I needed a different size, the staff were lively and brought a few more of that style in various sizes, and made sure I got the right size, without being condescending or pushy. In the end I was a 36G, my dress fit better, and I left happy.
My boobs were a steady 34D before the kids, but they have been steadily growing over the past few years ( DCs are 7 and 10), so I end up a size bigger pretty much every time I buy a bra! The straps always fall off my shoulders though, don't know if it's posture or small shoulders.
Also, I can't wear balcony or plunge bras, as my left boob has suicidal tendencies, and always jumps from the balcony or plunges out of the middle! The right one stays put. Is that just me, or do others have mischievous norks?

28D That's madness!

PS

When I said "that's madness" I didn't mean any disrespect or that I didn't believe you btw. It's just the thought of little "ironing board" me in a D cup.

In the interests of this thread (and cos I'm bored stupid with DH away this weekend and I haven't left the house in a few days, due to being unable to speak thanks to the knives that I appear to have swallowed) I've just taken a little trip to the Trafford Centre.

I'm currently measuring 29" under my rib cage and 36" around my boobage. So my 30E estimate does seem to be about correct. Its been a good while since I've bothered looking on the high street, mainly cos its always been a complete waste of time. Armed with a piece of string and a tape measure, I went to see just how much difference there is in sizing for 30 backs. (turns out, probably about only an inch either way of my 29" measurement)

It was a busy weekend, 5 weeks before christmas so I didn't get measured anywhere (plus I really wasn't in the mood either).

First stop, was good ol' M&S. And actually to give them there dues I WAS pleasantly surprised. Sat there in the middle of their autograph range was a 30E. They had very limited stock and very limited range, and didn't go higher than a 30E, but it was there.
Now according to their own online sizing guide, I come out somewhere between a 32DD and a 34D. So I grabbed a 32DD and a 30E.
Result: The 30E fitted perfectly across the back like all my other bras. The cup was way too small though, and I'd have need to go up at least two cup sizes.
The 32DD was funny. As expected, it was all over the place riding up my back and I had the same problem with the cup as the 30E. I think 34D would have been hysterical.
Conclusion: M&S gets brownie points for being better than I expected and having expanded their range. Their online sizing guide needs binning though. They could do better, but it IS a step in the right direction.
It also proves that there backs are not far off other brands.

Next up was John Lewis. The department was a mixed bag, they only had two ranges that did my size and had stock in (Fantastie and Freya - they also had Fauve but nothing in my size). They did have stock up in up to a size 30G, but it was limited. Didn't stop to try on anything here, but more on Fantastie and Freya later.
Conclusion: Would be nice if they carried a bit more variety and better stock but not bad on the sizes they carry. Would be nice if they expanded their own range like the other department stores...

Third was La Senza. They've just moved into a new store at the Trafford Centre within the last month, relocating to bigger premises. Extremely disappointing. They had lots of teeny weeny itsy bitsy size 6 knickers, but not a 30 back bra in site.
Conclusion: Winner of the Shit Lingerie Award for the Trafford Centre.

Next was Selfridges. This is where I admit I failed!!! The department was empty, and I got scared off by a tall blonde model like woman lurks and about to pounce on me. The did have similar ranges to John Lewis, but it would be unfair to judge them on their stock since I legged it.

Next I popped into BHS. To be honest, I wasn't expecting much. And didn't get much. But on the otherhand they also didn't stock hundreds of teeny size 6 knickers and clearly were aimed at the older, bigger lady.
Conclusion: Not the best place for petite women to shop.

Then it was the turn of Boux Avenue. Its the new project of Theo Paphitis of Dragons Den (He made his millions of launching La Senza and then selling it). The new store is right next to where La Senza moved last month, and I can't help feeling that the reason they moved wasn't for a refit, it was because Boux Avenue were taking all the business! It launched in the Summer, and to be honest, I've not been in there before and had a proper look. It surprised me. Unlike La Senza it had a full range of sizes from a 30A all the way up to a J. It was limited on ranges but they had a few in.
Result: Tried on a 30E. Perfect round the back. Little too much fabric on the cup, but not bad. I probably would have fitted a slightly smaller cup or in a different style. Not really to my taste, but it wasn't horrible by any means.
Conclusion: Pleasant little surprise and I hope they expand and put in a few more shops around the place. Its worth a look if you haven't been in and you do pass. I would probably go back and have another proper look. La Senza need to pull up their little cotton socks, as Boux Avenue is going right for their market...

Then on to final stop Debenhams. Again they just expanded and upgraded their department in October I think. I haven't been in until today. I was mightly impressed actually. Lots of different brands, massive range of stock and styles for various tastes. I could have tried on about 20 or 30 bras. In the end I stuck to just four, to see what the comparison was on them.
Result: Ultimo - this was admittedly part of their bridle range, but I had no idea that they did my size. 30E fitted across the back perfectly. Cups were fine, but due to it being a bridle range, my boobs looked like they were about to have my eye out! Unless I was wearing a wedding dress or bridesmaids dress I probably wouldn't buy. I might try and see whether they do other stuff in the size though. They did seem to do a full range of 30 backs from an A right up to at least a G.
Freya - I don't normally try on Freya, as I'm yet to find one that fits me remotely. The 30E didn't fit at all. The back rode up slightly and the cups were off. Given I'm measuring at 29inches, I don't think its too far off though. I would have probably been able to find something in a 28E I think.
Fantasie - Again, I don't normally look at fantasie as I find it a bit 'old fashioned' for my taste. Not so keen on the fuller cups. It fitted well on the back. Cup was too baggy though. Again, with the stock they had in, I probably would have been able to find a better fit in the cup.
And finally, Debenham's Own Range - Gorgeous. I was blown away by the range of styles available in a 30 back. Pretty damn good range, though I admit, in the ones I liked, 30Es, DDs and D seemed to have disappeared in a couple of styles. But since there were plenty of other ones to choose from it really didn't annoy too much. Bra fitted well - Only one of the day I would have bought. It was also the cheapest!!! :)

Anyway, sorry to ramble on... did prove to me that its definitely getting better, and that people are starting to catch up with the fact that 30 IS a real size. Even M&S if they bothered to sort out their sizing guide better. My 29 inch rib cage, seems to only fit 28 or 30 inch back bras, so there's not much difference in the under boob measurements at all between brands. I'm certainly not a 34inch back with the 4 - 5 inch measuring method in any brand I've tried on today. Obviously the Trafford Centre is better than most places, and has flag ship stores unlike the average town, but there is still no bravissimo, and none of the brands I normally wear on sale there.

Oh and I just happened to stumble upon this wonderful little idea of bra data-base site. The idea is you enter the bra brand, style and size you wear so other people can get a better idea of the slight variation there is. Its not that userfriendly and easy to find your way around, but I may well sign up. The bras, that are on there that I have are spot on. They also have a guide on different shaped boobs, but it looks like not enough people have really got the hang of that yet to make it usable. It is interesting to see the different descriptions of boob shape though. I really hope this site takes off! It could be invaluable.

bratabase.com/ (main data base)

bratabase.com/pages/Shapes/ (boob shapes guide)

So to summarise your findings...
Band size didn't differ much between the brands/sizes you tried, but cup did
Some surprises in that M&S and JL do offer some narrow backs/larger cups
Debenhams seems to be the best bet
Nobody fits into a size 6 pair of knickers
Somebody's beaten me to it with the bra database idea

Just 1 comment on BHS - they do (or used to do) a 'flatter' cup 32A/34A that used to fit me better than other brands, but appreciate that's not much good if you have a narrow back. Unfortunately old lady styles are what you're left with if you're my size (see previous rant of mine).

I hope the buyers/designers for the lingerie shops are reading this...

Applauds quietlyafraid for an afternoon's hard slog in the interests of bras!

So if I've understood correctly (and also what others who have measured on this thread have said) is it in fact the case that M&S bras are sized correctly (based on Freya/Bravissimo/etc being the 'right' size) but in fact their fitters are still doing it the old way and adding 4 etc.

That would certainly explain the fact that I've been confidently able to predict anyone who has moved from M&S to another store (Bravissimo, R&P, t'other chain that people have mentioned that isn't anywhere near where I live so I've forgotten) has gone down at least 1 but generally 2 back sizes and up a corresponding number of cup sizes...

Oh no, sack the judges! Award goes to 'Quietly'.

Quietly! That is dedication! And very interesting. I've been surprised at the range stocked by Debenhams. I used to be a fairly normal size and never worried too much about finding bras in my size, but I now find it quite difficult to find affordable bras in a 30J. However, Debenhams always has a few options in the Freya, Fantasie and Panache ranges. My favourite is Panache because of the plunge style of so many of them. I can wear them and still breastfeed by hoiking my boob out of the cup. The others are difficult because they come up so high at the front. I also prefer the plunge style for wearing under tops that don't come up to my neck. I do wish Debenhams would stock my size in Panache more often though. And they claim not to stock anything at all in a 30J online, but do have them instore. What's that all about?!

Dedication? No, very much boredom.

Acekicker, that seems to be the case - that the back sizes are correct for M&S - its the fitting guide / fitters that are doing it wrong. There's nothing wrong with the bras as such. I actually liked the I tried on, and was quite disappointed that the cup size seemed all wrong!

Freya seem to be the only brand that seem slightly different on the back size, but that could have been the one I tried out, though I've never been able to find one that fits before (I've found the cup shape more pointy than round in the past which doesn't work for me). It seemed that the back size works out on the smaller side, so if you are a 30 elsewhere, then a 28 may work better for you which tallies with stuff I've seen elsewhere about their sizing. I know they are supposed to be aimed at a young market, with fantasie at the older women and fauve somewhere in the middle at the 'sexy' market.

Yes the cup shapes did seem to vary a lot more wildly. I had 'four boob' in some but enough space to pack my makeup, purse and car keys in others! Massive difference.

The only thing I will say about the Debenhams stuff was some not all, looked a bit cheap and as if it wouldn't last too long. Some of it looked good quality though. The I one looked at was £17.95 and included a free pair of matching knickers so it wasn't terrible on price when that was factored in (its cheaper online but doesn't have the same deal). I'd like to know what the quality was like after a few washes compared to other brands.

I couldn't actually find any Panache in TC but I might have missed it. (I wasn't looking too hard tbf). I almost got the impression that Debenhams had stopped doing it with the new department. They seem to have a couple of brands they are only selling online now. Could be wrong though.