To be really angry with my neighbour's son?

[WombOnTheBroom]

My neighbour is in her mid-eighties. She's immobile (confined to a chair). She has carers four times a day. She can't make it out of her chair even onto the commode without assistance. She is increasingly confused - regularly calls me and thinks people who have died long ago are still with us. She falls regularly (about 1-2 times per week) when she tries to go to the loo without her carers or when she forgets that she can't walk. I'm terrified that she's going to break a hip/something else/overdose on medication (she self-medicates for arthritis and I can't believe that she remembers when she's taken her last dose). She doesn't want to go into a home - she has lived in the house for over 50 years. But she doesn't even have a downstairs bathroom so she's not had a bath in 4 years. She is regularly sitting in her own mess as she can't make it onto the commode.

Her son lives about an hour away and calls for a short visit about every 3-4 weeks. He is 50+ with two grown children. He is reasonably comfortably off (based admittedly on my neighbour's views) - he has nice cars, and four/five overseas holidays per year. I have called him on several occasions when she's fallen and has called me or at times when she's seemed particularly confused. I know her friends locally are concerned about her too and have also called him. She needs additional care. I even went so far as to mention my concerns to her GP (coincidentally also mine). But her son plays down any concerns and as a result I don't think her real care needs are being met. I am really worried something bad is going to happen. Her GP said that unless she is a danger to herself or others she (the GP) can't do anything. Anytime my neighbour sees the GP etc she downplays how bad she is.

I call in about once a week but have two young children and can't call in every day (and beside which I'm not equipped to support her properly). AIBU to be angry that her son isn't taking her condition seriously? Or should I remove my sticky beak and let them get on with it? Or is there something else I can do?

Sadly I agree with methe (work p/t in residential home for elderly)

Featherbag is right. Carers 4x a day is the maximum support that she can get and still remain in her own home. If she doesn't want to go into residential care there is very little social services can do. It is frustrating but in a society where the elderly living alone is the norm, all too common unfortunately.

I agree with calling ambulances whenever she seems increasingly confused etc

but don't be so quick to judge the son, when you are in a position to find out the nitty gritty of some of these cases sometimes the sweet little frail elderly person was a horrific parent with most children taken into care, old age can change a person's personality. The son may have got the life and family he has IN SPITE of her

or he could feel the same way but had to give up the fight for the sake of his sanity, my mum's neighbour's son is the same, nice house, spare time/money... only because my mum shares a thin wall with them do we know that he has fallen out with his dad time and time again because his dad fires carers/turns away meals on wheels/ refuses to move in with them or have them help/refuses to go to a home.... to other neighbours who arent attatched the poor old man is in a terrible state and flash son turns up less and less and appears not to care all that much. He is regularly found by neighbours in a terrible state

My MIL cannot cope adequately alone. She refuses any assistance.
She is also bitter, toxic and utterly poisonous to her son and myself. She has attempted to destroy our marriage many times.

I wouldn't judge this son at all. You have no idea how this woman is towards him.

I never see my MIL, DH visits as little as possible.

I think how we end up in old age can sometimes reflect how we behaved in our younger years.

To give a different point of view. DPs granda was 96, very frail, alcohol issues, multiple falls etc. Family pushed and pushed for residential care, but he didn't want it - so carers put in during the day etc, but didn't meet his needs. He was a crabby old bastard at the best of times - fell out with everyone and it was only DMIL who looked after him (apart from ss). The sad thing was that the more she did for him the less ss did, eventually she withdrew her support, so that ss would be forced to see how bad things were. Eventually (while in hospital) he agreed that a care home would be the best thing. He was assessed and was waiting to be discharged to a home. He died within a week of his assessment.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that with or without family intervention there is little ss can do without the consent of the person involved. I wouldn't judge the son. Son might not even know how bad things are

mrsravelstein is right too, sometimes relatives have to tactically refuse to do ANYTHING in order to get proper professional help set up and remaining in place, just because the son looks well doesn't mean he doesn't have a knackered back or something, and if he was stepping in her packages of care could have been less, I've seen it happen many times, especially on discharge from hospital: setting up/restarting/increasing packages of care takes time, if a rellie will help then the hospital bed is freed a day earlier but then they're left doing it with less help indefinitely..

An ambulance cannot take her to hospital if she refuses to go. It sounds as if she would be judged to have 'capacity' and therefore the right to make her own decisions.
That, of course, does not make your life any easier and ambulance staff will try and persuade her if they judge she needs to go to hospital but that will be based on clinical need.

they are quite good at it though, better than neighbours and sons

Shes 80 odd? so hes late 50's early 60's?

Do you have any idea what his home circumstances are? Or whether hes tried and tried to get her into a home?

If you feel that strongly - and you share a GP - dont you thinkg the GP would have called in SS? or (assuming) the local hospital deals with her on occassion, would also call in the SS? feel free to call in the SS - but if she has care assistants 4 times a day - arent the SS providing/evaluationg this?

BTW what does the sons income and holidays have to do with all of this?

Trois I know he has phoned one home (a nearby local authority run one) but he told me that they have a waiting list. I only mentioned the son's financial circumstances to explain that he wasn't penniless. I thought if I hadn't mentioned it people might, quite rightly, question whether his behaviour was motivated by an inability to contribute financially/afford to travel to visit etc. TBH I don't know how her care is funded (nor is it any of my business) and I don't know how/when they would inform social services. Ref the holidays, I suppose I'm a bit p*ed off that he's away again this week and I've been round/had calls at least daily (four times today).

Grumplestiltskin and ginmakesitlookallok - I think you have a really fair point. I don't know what their relationship is/was like so it conceivably could be 'karma'. But irrespective what they might have been like, I find someone having to sit in their own mess and waiting for them to break a bone bloody awful. My husband's grandmother died a horrible, slow death from a broken hip and I'd hate to see anyone go through that if it were avoidable. So maybe my anger would be better directed to the 'system' that allows it to carry on. But my initial view is that (based on conversations with the son) that he's not really advocating on her behalf/engaged enough with it to know how bad it really is. I called him about 3 weeks ago when she was really confused and he shrugged it off, saying 'oh yes, she'd called xxxx earlier and was confused but she got better by the end of the call'. (She was convinced that her dad and mum were upstairs and she wanted to call the doctor for them (her dad and mum have been dead for decades)).

I hadn't thought about phoning an ambulance when she's confused - I might do that next time if she doesn't snap out of it.

How 'bad' does someone need to be until they're not deemed competent? My grandparents all died fairly young before dementia kicked in so I've been amazed that someone can be sitting at home alone in such a bad physical and mental state and still deemed competent. (I'd say that in more than half the 10+ calls I've had this last week she's been very confused.) Maybe I'll just put it in writing to the GP to see if it prompts them to do an assessment.

Sorry - second point also relevant to Lookattheears

Who rings you, is it the lady herself or is it the people who run the panic button response? If it is a company you can say no and they will send the police/ambulance again flagging her need for care which might be of no help now but could be useful later

It's her. The panic button thing automatically calls the company who send round the ambulance - thankfully. She is too heavy even for me and my husband to lift together (last tried it just two weeks after giving birth and it nearly killed me). If she's near the phone she'll then call me. Most of her calls to me aren't specifically about falls, though, just because she's confused/had another accident.

My grandma has dementia but the initial symptoms (before she went into a care home) were very similar to your neighbour's. Even now she is usually quite lucid, but we have learned that bouts of particular confusion are usually indicative of an undiagnosed UTI. As soon as she has antibiotics, she is back to 'normal' levels of lucidity. Perhaps the possibility of a UTI is something that you can raise when you next speak to her son, as it would be him who would need to convince her to see the GP for a urine test just to rule it out. However it's clear that she has mobility issues which are putting her health at risk, yet she is probably very scared about her immediate future and having to leave her home. I hope someone is able to take some responsibility for her welfare soon, whether that's her son or SS.

My DFIL lived in sheltered accomodation and he kept having falls and DH and my BIL's kept finding him covered in his own mess :( He was of sound mind and didnt want to go in a care home, I think it took a year trying to convince social services and the hospital that he needed to be somewhere he was safe. In the end he went into a home even though he didnt want to , he was there for a few years and has recently passed away :( :(

I think if you talk to the GP and social services and maybe try and get the ladies son to organise a meeting at the ladies house.

It sounds like you have your hands full, without getting 4 calls a day. Could you keep a diary of call, what was said, to prove to GP about the confusion. She could have dementia, the early stages of it, and it is far better if it is picked up earlier. You sat she has deteriated in the last 6 months- have you talked to the GP recently about her?
Another option is to text the son every time you have. A call..... It is abut narky, but make the message very polite and caring..."thought you'd like to know...." if he gets pissy about it, you could explain she is not your mother and yes you do understand how time consuming it is.
It is an awful situation to be in, hats off to you for doing so much to her.

Cristaltits (great name btw!) - She has been checked relatively recently for a urine infection. A while ago (before the last 6 months) she did have a couple of UTIs that made her a bit confused. It's been different lately though - more frequent and more severe.

Grograg - sorry about your DFIL and your loss. I think a call/letter to the GP and Social Services might be in order. I might try to speak to the son's wife too. She told me once that the son wasn't accepting how bad his mum was, IYSWIM. She might be a way to arrange a meeting - I don't want to be involved in it beyond that, though. I think the idea of a call diary would be good - thanks Mrslaughan. I also like the idea of the texts. I don't think that I'm doing that much, btw. I have two little ones so I just can't be round there all the time. I just don't like the idea of someone alone, confused and frightened. Not to mention in physical pain and danger from more falls.

All credit to you for getting involved ( even though it's driving you nuts!) so many people would just look the other way.

I agree with what others have said about calling an ambulance when she falls or becomes confused. I think your neighbour is more likely to get the help she needs if she is blocking a bed on a hospital ward - or maybe I'm just an old cynic.

i worked the care industry this happens a lot keep on at social services untill they do something some drs r lazy and the way they test to see if competent is a joke one lady i looked after dr said was ok because she mananged to put her lipstick on never mind she was soiled all the time did not remember to eat wash etc you will be suprised the amount of kids that do not care about parents

As someone said earlier -don't be too quick to blame the son. I lived 3 hours away from my mum, who I know was constantly calling on her neighbours and friends. I have 2 young children and work FT and was desperate to move my mum nearer but she wouldn't hear of it. Things got progressivly worse, with snotty letters arriving from her friends saying I needed to do something. She was hospitalised - big sigh of relief - and we had a big meeting to arrange what to do next. To my mind she could no longer live independently. SS told me it was her 'human right' to live in her own home. What followed was a year from hell. Falls, phonecalls throughout the night, looking for long dead people and a very distressng answerphone message when she was clearly terrified - the list was endless. Eventually she fell and the carers had forgotten to giver her her panic button so she wasn't found for a few hours. I foud a care home near me and fought for 4 weeks with SS to move her there (incidentally all the friends and neighbours who had moaned to me were teling her she would soon be home). She is self funding. 2 years later she is a changed woman. She is safe and cared for. She would be gutted to know its costing her £620/week! (She keeps telling me I'll get the bungalow one day and I havn't the heart to tell her its all gone)

I know her friends from back home had no idea of the conversations I was trying to have with mum - they thought we just didn't care. It's nice for your neigbour to have someone who cares but be careful not to get too involved. She sounds like she needs more help than you can give. Good luck!

This is really difficult. Going got play devil's advocate a bit here...on the face of it the son sounds like a selfish pig, but you don't know what the history is. Perhaps he's tried over the years to change her situation but she will not allow him? The elderly can be very proud and stubborn, to the detriment of their own wellbeing. And I know he doesn't visit anywhere near enough, but again, how can we know if this is 'fair' given the lack of background? Maybe they have a slightly estranged/strained relationship and he only comes occasionally out of duty? I know I would not have been any different with my father, no matter how in need of care he was, as he was always pretty much estranged to me when I was growing up and in adulthood I felt I barely connected with him.

Let's say hypothetically, old lady has done equity release and blown all of her money so there is no value left in her house, and she refuses point blank to go into a care home, because she only wants to live alone, or with her son. Perhaps her son cannot afford to keep her, maybe both he and his wife need/want to work, and do not have the space for her. Or perhaps she has money but refuses to use it, and he is willing to help her, but she must be prepared to sell her home to fund changes to the situation - after all, why should he fund it?

Perhaps she has been the MIL From Hell and the son's wife would rather stick needles in her eyes than have the lady to live there. Perhaps he only visits infrequently because he is tired of banging his head against a wall with her and he finds it maddening to have to listen to the guilt trips and yet be powerless to do anything practical to help her that doesn't cost him money, or that she will actually agree to.

On the other hand, he could just be a selfish git....

But in the meantime, she needs more practical support and so I agree with everyone else - call an ambulance next time, and SS, and make it clear that she is unable to live independently any longer and that will force their hand one way or another. Can someone refuse to go into care in these situations? I'm not sure.

Just to add, we spent years trying to buy MIl a flat, move her near us and into sheletered. She refused.
So now she is old and ill and isolated and spiteful and bitter and 400 miles away in a freezing flat with no cooker and no heating.

She chose this life every step of the way. Oh, I have no doubt her neighbours think we are selfish and rich and horrid.

How 'bad' does someone need to be until they're not deemed competent?

OP, to answer your question, the relative i referred to upthread was living in an absolutely squalid mouse infested hovel (they were nesting in her bed), kept falling over and having to call to be rescued from her flat after all her hoarded belongings fell on her and buried her, had no cooking or washing facilities, wasn't taking medication that was essential to her, etc.

But over the course of 18 months she was repeatedly assessed. She could, on a good day, have a lively conversation about politics or classical music. She was not depressed. So we were told by GP/SS that she had the right to choose her way of life, unpleasant though it would be to most normal people.

This makes me really sad. I struggled for years to look after my mum with dementia and it was only after I went to the doctors and told him that I was seriously considering stepping out in front of a bus that I got any help. Yes ss were involved but if you think childrens services are underfunded then you haven't seen anything till you look at adult services. My mums sw admitted to me that she had such a massive case load that unless people rang her up and screamed and shouted she just had to leave them to cope. She was too busy with elderly people who were 'obviously vulnerable'.

The most useful person in getting my mum help was her CPN (community psychiactric nurse) for some reason mum took any concerns from a woman in a uniform much more seriously. Is there anyone like this involved in the care?

Mum is now in a residential home. By doing this (and from my point of view doing the best thing for my mum AND my family) I have made myself homeless, half of my family no longer speak to me, I have people in the street that knew my mum telling me that I must be ashamed of myself. When the person who has loved and nurtured you for your whole life suddenly becomes unable to do this and in fact becomes someone that you don't know anymore it is a horrendous feeling. Perhaps her son is in denial, maybe he honestly doesnt appreciate how bad she is (my sister lived less than 5 minutes walk away from me and my mum and saw her once a week and she still won't accept that she needed residential care), perhaps he is thinking about the money (mums local authority care - well ex local authority, they've all been sold now - is running at a cost of about £25.000 per year). We don't know do we?

Ring ss, be very aware that they might not do anything, but keep ringing until it becomes important. Crap advice I know - sorry it must be really hard to see this happening

I second everyone who says how hard it is to get help for someone who refuses it. My father had dementia and people were still bleating about how they had to respect his opinion regarding his ability to look after himself long after he was in obvious danger.

He got badly burnt, flooded his house, went wandering along icy pavements wi no coat, invited strangers into his house and left them unattended whilst he went to make tea. Stopping the 'wonderful' new drive he had ordered from a door to door company for several thousand pounds was interesting.

He had carers every morning who were supposed to give him his medication and make sure he had his breakfast. They would write jolly little notes about how he had already eaten before they arrived. Thing was, I bought his food and checked how much had gone every evening and he wasn't eating. But they had to respect his opinion...

He could pull the wool over people's eyes seeming very articulate, conversing about history, politics. He even got himself to the brink Of discharge from hospital after a fall by convincing staff he was set up at home to cope with a fractured hip - I had to go to the discharge coordinator and remind her that my father had dementia and his word could not be trusted.

My brother was in complete denial insisting that my father was 'as sharp as ever' - he wasn't.

It was so frustrating. Thankfully I lived in the same street so could keep an eye on him but I ended up immobile with a slipped disc and then dad wouldn't accept help from anyone else and it all unravelled.

You really do have to work very hard to get people to accept that you need support in getting the right care for your parents.