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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be offended by this as a homophobic policy in a school?

147 replies

Section28WasRepealed · 08/11/2011 00:04

I have just come across a 'Sex Education and RE' document from a prestigious school in Birmingham - a very diverse city, obviously.

There are a few points in it which raise my eyebrows, but this document, dated September 2010, basically promotes Section 28 - the homophobic legislation which had to be repealed after a lengthy campaign, and has since been apologised for by David Cameron.

The most offensive parts to my mind are:

The school has a responsibility to ensure that pupils understand those aspects of the law which relate to sexual activity and cannot avoid tackling controversial sexual matters such as homosexuality, AIDS, contraception and abortion. On these particular matters:-
i. There is no place for teaching which advocates homosexual behaviour, which presents it as the 'norm', or which encourages homosexual experimentation by pupils.

and

If the teacher believes that a pupil has embarked upon, or is contemplating, a course of conduct likely to place him or her in moral or physical danger, or in breach of the law, the teacher has a general duty to warn the pupil of the risks and may, depending on the circumstances and the professional judgements involved, advise the parents, Head Teacher, or specialist support services.

Perhaps homosexuality is not the norm, but it is a norm. What is wrong with advocating it? It is an absolutely valid orientation and not a choice which can be influenced anyway. How can one defend a child against homophobic bullying without being a defender of their right to be sexually attracted to somebody of the same sex?!

& just what is 'moral danger'? Who judges it? & in context of this document and the other points expressed, do we want the author of said document to be making such judgements about our children?

So basically, AIBU to think that this is incredibly badly worded, at best? Or is this normal and even acceptable within schools?

OP posts:
MillyR · 08/11/2011 12:58

Pendeen, homosexuality is a sexual orientation. It would be the same as if the school had a statement which said that 'there is no place for teaching that advocates sexual attraction or romantic love between white people.'

Why mention any group in particular that the school is choosing not to advocate the relationships of? To single one group out is discriminatory.

Original poster
Section28WasRepealed · 08/11/2011 13:00

I'd also contest the idea that it's even possible to 'promote' a sexual orientation. It's not a choice that can be encouraged or not - it just is. What can be promoted is tolerance, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

OP posts:
Splinters · 08/11/2011 13:03

Encouraging teenagers not to embark too quickly on any kind of sexual relationship -- fine and good.

Specifically picking out homosexuality and making it the defining characteristic of certain types of discussion for which there is "no place" (this really is quite strident language) -- not acceptable. Am definitely with the op here.

OldMacEIEIO · 08/11/2011 13:04

I want my kids to learn how to read and write. Tolerance I will teach them myself

Sick to death of all of you over the top PC idiots who think its a good idea to storm into a school and rip an assistant a new one. Look up ironic, tolerance and hypocrite next time you get a chance.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 13:06

I hate this idea that it's ok to expect homosexual (or just curious) teenagers to refrain from any kind of relationship until tehy're adults. Which seems to be what some people are saying here?

It's not healthy or normal to insist teenagers just don't act on or explore any feelings they may have. All it does is to promote the idea that homosexuality is something to 'grow out of', or something nasty to be kept away from children.

HedleyLamarr · 08/11/2011 13:07

I'd be furious if either of my dcs were actively encouraged to be homosexual.

You can't encourage anybody to be gay. You either are or you're not. Gay people that I know knew from an early age.

CaptainPeroxide · 08/11/2011 13:07

Correct Splinters, however any school that has an 'C of E emphasis' as OP pointed out (or any other religion, I suppose) is going to have a problem with homosexuality.

MillyR · 08/11/2011 13:09

OME, would you be happy with the situation that particular poster was referring to? Would you, for example (and I will assume you are a mother, but feel free to correct me), be happy if a TA told your child that they couldn't make you a mother's day card because the class was only going to make cards for children's two dads.

Would you be happy for a a secondary school to say that it did not advocate heterosexual relationships?

Would you just think that tolerance of relationships between different sex couples could be taught at home instead?

Splinters · 08/11/2011 13:12

Don't know if you have me in mind, LRD, but I'm not saying 'make them wait until they're adults', I'm saying 'teach people that it's fine for them to take things at a pace they themselves are comfortable with'. And IMO that is something that bears repeated discussion.

AnyoneButLulu · 08/11/2011 13:14

I'd have a big problem with the first section, but I think the second one is fine, "moral danger" is an old fashioned phrase, but what it raises in my mind is street grooming, that sort of thing.

OldMacEIEIO · 08/11/2011 13:15

MillyR
I would not be happy if they did not give my kids a first class education. And all of your PC hysteria and intolerance is not part of a first class education

in my opinion

reallytired · 08/11/2011 13:16

I think the language of the policy is decidely odd and doesn't reflect the reality of modern society.

I would not have a problem in a school telling my children that most people are hetrosexual, but 10% of people are homosexual. (I am not sure of the stats, so please don't lynch me.) I think it would be good for a young gay or lesbian teen to know that they are not alone. I am sure that a homosexual person with half a brain cell has worked out that they are in a minority.

However there is a world of difference between being in a minority and being abnormal. Homosexuality is part of the human condition, its not something to be ashamed of.

I would be livid if my children were being encouraged to have sex with anyone! In someways hetrosexual relationships are a bigger minefield because of the potential to get pregnant.

Original poster
Section28WasRepealed · 08/11/2011 13:17

OldMac, I can only assume that your posts & your suggestion to look up the word 'ironic' are linked, & this is actually some sort of reverse opinion thing... 'over the top PC idiots' and our 'intolerance', indeed.

OP posts:
CaptainPeroxide · 08/11/2011 13:20

OldMac, intolerance of what? Homophobia? Ignorance? These are things that shouldn't be tolerated.

MillyR · 08/11/2011 13:20

Sorry, OME, I don't understand your posts.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 13:20

splinters - no, it wasn't you, it was just a comment based on the OP/my feelings about this sort of thing.

I agree it's important to teach all children to take their time with relationships/sex. But that has nothing to do with orientation IMO.

I think it's too easy to say 'oh, we're not homophobic, we'd just rather not see it/we'd just rather you waited until you're older/we'd rather you waited until you're sure about your orientation instead of experimenting'. It's that kind of stalling this policy encourages. IMO it's very damaging and unpleasant.

reallytired · 08/11/2011 13:21

I think it would be dreadful if Section28WasRepealed children were told that their parents are immoral. Section28WasRepealed is not asking much for the school to respect her family set up.

Its the school's job to teach the kids, not to judge their family.

TheScaryJessie · 08/11/2011 13:27

Personally, I'd be furious if any teacher actively encouraged my children to be heterosexual or homosexual, but I doubt that either would "turn them straight/gay". I'd be furious, because it would be bullying.

OldMac, how would you feel about an adopted child being told his mother wasn't his "real mother", and he couldn't make a card for her? Wouldn't you see that as a hideous way to behave to a child?

MooncupGoddess · 08/11/2011 13:30

The homosexuality clause is really appalling. It derives directly from Section 28 and bizarre fears about 'teachers promoting homosexuality'. (I have never heard, anywhere or at any time, of a single instance of a teacher 'promoting homosexuality'. How on earth would they do it? And why?)

OP - do complain. This should go to the highest level.

PootlePosyPumpkin · 08/11/2011 13:31

Good old KEFW. I knew which school you meant before you linked to the document. Did you know that they don't have bullies in their school either? Hmm Anyway, I digress. How lovely that a teenager struggling to come to terms with their sexuality can be taught that they are indeed abnormal & should just stop it. This is 2011 isn't it?

Ilanthe · 08/11/2011 13:33

I went to one of the KE schools in Birmingham (not FW, it was still all boys at the time!) and we had an incident where one of my friends was being seen to be being 'groomed' by an older girl into a lesbian relationship. They were both under the age of consent. It was all pubescent fantasy stuff really, the older girl used to talk about how she'd sneaked into the bedroom of an even older girl (who probably didn't even know she existed, tbh!). I was periphally involved as I heard all this talk but I gave it the Hmm look and distanced myself, but my friend got completely sucked in.

Now I don't agree with the first paragraph about not promoting / discussing homosexuality. I think all relationships should be seen as equally valid. But the second was exactly what the school did about this particular incident. We were banned from speaking to or seeing the older girl and I think my friend's parents were informed (mine weren't). My friend was troubled and desperate for attention but wasn't a lesbian - she's now married with two kids. The school realised this and that is why they took action. I know there was some action taken against the older girl as well but I have no idea what it was. So there is definitely a place for this approach.

Esta3GG · 08/11/2011 13:36

I campaigned a lot over Clause 28 - I have to say that nothing really bothers me too much other than the phrasing of this bit .....

i. There is no place for teaching which advocates homosexual behaviour, which presents it as the 'norm', or which encourages homosexual experimentation by pupils.

This seems perilously close to the "spirit" of clause 28.
It suggests that any teaching of, for example, literary works where homosexual love was celebrated, would be out of bounds. So that is everything from Petronius to Armistead Maupin.
Bloody ridiculous in the 21st century.

Original poster
Section28WasRepealed · 08/11/2011 13:37

Pootle Grin I am aware of the total lack of bullies, yes. It really is quite an exceptional school Wink

Ilanthe, obviously that situation's totally wrong, but I don't think that it has anything to do with sexuality (of course you must have been at an all girls school, which makes it rather likely to have been another girl!), but that would've been wrong whether it was heterosexual or not.

OP posts:
MillyR · 08/11/2011 13:38

How on earth can either the school or you know that this girl was entirely heterosexual? What an utterly bizarre post.

The point was, one would hope, that adults should prevent any relationship where the age gap leaves the younger person vulnerable to abuse. The fact that the school thought it knew what the sexual orientation of the young person was is completely irrelevant. If the older child had been a boy the school would still have to have intervened.

TandB · 08/11/2011 13:45

YANBU

There is simply no need for the issue of homosexuality to be explicitly addressed in this policy.

No-one is asking them to promote homosexual behaviour. No-one is asking them to promote any sort of sexual behaviour.