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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"A woman's opinion is the miniskirt of the internet"

999 replies

HedleyLamarr · 05/11/2011 22:52

I posted this in Feminism [brave emoticon], and someone has suggested putting it in AIBU.

So, I was sent a link to this article in the Independent. Your thoughts/ideas are much appreciated Smile.

OP posts:
catgirl1976 · 07/11/2011 13:44

Sorry Lucy

quietlyafraid · 07/11/2011 13:46

Yeah well I'll just ignore the fact that my husband got exactly those threats on a cycling forum about 2 weeks ago over an argument about occasionally breaking minor laws to be more safe (namely shooting a red light slightly early when the lights in the other direction were changing).

He had two people saying they know where he lived and worked. They do not. And threatening to beat the out of him.

Its not the first time. On a FB forums we were both on, he's had threats including some directed at me. It doesn't bother me, as I know its about winding him up and actually I can generally wipe the floor with people who do stuff like that as they lack any level of intelligence or ability to argue a point in an articulate fashion.

I know numerous other white guys this has happened to, including instances of accusations of being a paedo (ended up with police involved), harassment of friends and family (again police involved), false accusations of wife beating (the wife got very upset and came on to deny it and actually contacted several other people in RL as she was so hurt over the allegations and how much it had upset her husband). I guess I tend to like people who have strong and vocal opinions...

On balance from the first hand and second hand experiences I know of on the internet, male v female its pretty much even. Its internet bullying and I have no idea why people are trying to dress it up as anything else other than because they have their own agenda and they want to hijack the problem as exclusively 'their' problem.

Anyway I'll shut up now, cos obviously I'm not enough of a feminist as I don't get on my high horse about the fact the world is run by men.

working9while5 · 07/11/2011 13:49

Wow, how rude!!!

I just don't agree with you! It's not about it "getting through", I just don't agree! You don't agree with me, fine. There is absolutely no need to bring out the capitals which basically equates to losing your temper.

PartyPooperz · 07/11/2011 13:50

catgirl "THE ARTICLE RASIED THE SUGGESTION THAT WHITE MIDDLE CLASS MALES DO NOT GET THREATS / ABUSE WHEN POSTING OPINIONS ON THE INTERNET."

I just cannot find where she says white, straight men do not get threats or abuse when posting opinions on the internet.

Can you point me to the bit you are referring to please?

I can see she says that IF the only people that can use technology/participate in public life without FEAR of abuse (e.g. not without abuse itself) then free speech on the internet does not exist - so are you saying that is the same things as straight white men do not get abuse?

"You come to expect it, as a woman writer, particularly if you're political. You come to expect the vitriol, the insults, the death threats. After a while, the emails and tweets and comments containing graphic fantasies of how and where and with what kitchen implements certain pseudonymous people would like to rape you cease to be shocking, and become merely a daily or weekly annoyance, something to phone your girlfriends about, seeking safety in hollow laughter.

An opinion, it seems, is the short skirt of the internet. Having one and flaunting it is somehow asking an amorphous mass of almost-entirely male keyboard-bashers to tell you how they'd like to rape, kill and urinate on you. This week, after a particularly ugly slew of threats, I decided to make just a few of those messages public on Twitter, and the response I received was overwhelming. Many could not believe the hate I received, and many more began to share their own stories of harassment, intimidation and abuse.

Perhaps it should be comforting when calling a woman fat and ugly is the best response to her arguments, but it's a chill comfort, especially when one realises, as I have come to realise over the past year, just how much time and effort some vicious people are prepared to expend trying to punish and silence a woman who dares to be ambitious, outspoken, or merely present in a public space.

No journalist worth reading expects zero criticism, and the internet has made it easier for readers to critique and engage. This is to be welcomed, and I have long felt that many more established columnists' complaints about the comments they receive spring, in part, from resentment at having their readers suddenly talk back. In my experience, however, the charges of stupidity, hypocrisy, Stalinism and poor personal hygiene which are a sure sign that any left-wing columnist is at least upsetting the right people, come spiced with a large and debilitating helping of violent misogyny, and not only from the far-right.

Many commentators, wondering aloud where all the strong female voices are, close their eyes to how normal this sort of threat has become. Most mornings, when I go to check my email, Twitter and Facebook accounts, I have to sift through threats of violence, public speculations about my sexual preference and the odour and capacity of my genitals, and attempts to write off challenging ideas with the declaration that, since I and my friends are so very unattractive, anything we have to say must be irrelevant.

The implication that a woman must be sexually appealing to be taken seriously as a thinker did not start with the internet: it's a charge that has been used to shame and dismiss women's ideas since long before Mary Wollestonecraft was called "a hyena in petticoats". The internet, however, makes it easier for boys in lonely bedrooms to become bullies. It's not only journalists, bloggers and activists who are targeted. Businesswomen, women who play games online and schoolgirls who post video-diaries on YouTube have all been subject to campaigns of intimidation designed to drive them off the internet, by people who seem to believe that the only use a woman should make of modern technology is to show her breasts to the world for a fee.

Like many others, I have also received more direct threats, like the men who hunted down and threatened to publish old photographs of me which are relevant to my work only if one believes that any budding feminist journalist should remain entirely sober, fully clothed and completely vertical for the entirety of her first year of university. Efforts, too, were made to track down and harass my family, including my two school-age sisters. After one particular round of rape threats, including the suggestion that, for criticising neoliberal economic policymaking, I should be made to fellate a row of bankers at knifepoint, I was informed that people were searching for my home address. I could go on.

I'd like to say that none of this bothered me ? to be one of those women who are strong enough to brush off the abuse, which is always the advice given by people who don't believe bullies and bigots can be fought. Sometimes I feel that speaking about the strength it takes just to turn on the computer, or how I've been afraid to leave my house, is an admission of weakness. Fear that it's somehow your fault for not being strong enough is, of course, what allows abusers to continue to abuse.

I believe the time for silence is over. If we want to build a truly fair and vibrant community of political debate and social exchange, online and offline, it's not enough to ignore harassment of women, LGBT people or people of colour who dare to have opinions. Free speech means being free to use technology and participate in public life without fear of abuse ? and if the only people who can do so are white, straight men, the internet is not as free as we'd like to believe."

catgirl1976 · 07/11/2011 13:52

I have lost my will to live and possibly my temper.

There is nothing to disagree with. It's simple fact. The reason people said it happens to men is because the author suggested it didn't, not as some sort of caveat or excuse for what happened to the author. I am sorry you don't understand that.

LucyStone · 07/11/2011 13:52

Quietly. it seems we've had very different experiences. and I'm sorry for yours. i wasn't trying to dismiss you as a feminist. i was just confused as to how you didn't feel the world was run by men? every one approaches feminism differently, so it's up to you if you get on your high horse about it, but denying a patriarchy seems odd.

working9while5 · 07/11/2011 13:55

I am sorry you don't understand that two people can read the same text in different ways. I am even more sorry that you lose your temper and "will to live" Hmm because people have different viewpoints to you.

PartyPooperz · 07/11/2011 13:57

catgirl But where does she say that in the whole article?

If anything she suggests that white straight men have less to fear from such abuse (which then takes us back to the whole context debate ie. do men get raped by other men or women as frequently as women are raped by men? No. Therefore do sexually abusive threats to women have a more powerful connotation? In my view, yes.) but nowhere does she say they do not receive abuse.

Unless of course you can point me to the bit you believe says this please?

I am trying to understand/find the bit you are referring to but must be being dense which is why you are having to shout!

LucyStone · 07/11/2011 14:02

Catgirl, a text can be read multiple ways. hence why people are drawing different conclusions from the article. unfortunately, i can't access it on my phone to argue in LP's defence. it could be that she meant white, straight, middle class males receive less threats than the other groups combined. out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's any recent research into the division of genders on the internet, in more public spaces, such as forums, blogs and Twitter?

catgirl1976 · 07/11/2011 14:04

You are either very dense or purposefully obtuse. I expect it is the latter but on either count I simply cannot be bothered to continue on this thread.

She strongly suggests the white, middle class males can particpate in public life without fear of abuse. Either she is suggesting they do not recieve abuse or threat which is clearly untrue, or that they have nothing to fear from abuse, which given the amount of violence men suffer at the hands of other men seems very dismissive of her. I am not sure it would read well if someone said she should simply not fear the threats she recieves.

Could you let me know if you think it is ok for her to dismiss the risk posed by threats of violence men recieve in this manner?

At no point does anyone suggest men are subjected to threats of violence that is specifically sexual in nature as often as women are. Just abuse or threats of violence full stop.

Now I am leaving this thread as we are unlikely to agree.

PartyPooperz · 07/11/2011 14:05

Lucy I have c&p'd the entire LP article above because I can't find the bit catgirl is referring to and am asking whether this is interpretation of text and which bit to try and understand but maybe you can see it?

quietlyafraid · 07/11/2011 14:06

Lucy I get fed up of the idea. There are vast and huge inequalities for women. But there also some for men which get ignored and actually are a massive part of actually achieving equality and feminist goals.

I was intrigued by a story I read about Japan and the culture there. In Japan, women tend to have families or careers. Not both. And they largely have a choice. The men on the other had have a very difference experience. As soon as they leave education the expectation is career and doing everything to succeed especially in family businesses. Women, didn't have the same pressure on their shoulders. And it was leading to the curious thing where women were far more likely to go backpacking or travelling with their mothers than men were in their early twenties. For men, because they get so few holidays, the only way many see the world was through work and business trips. Whilst the women eventually had to give up that freedom, once they started a family, they still had that freedom initially.

Feminism does not exist in isolation - particularly in the western world. Women complain about having to look after the children, yeah give hostile reactions to stay at home Dads.

To me, feminists are all to keen on jumping on the bad things, not looking at the good things and completely railroading anyone who dares challenge their point of view. They want to be the victim.

The very act of giving birth, creates inequalities - but its for both genders. Hence why I get so very annoyed at the 'men rule the world thing'. It isn't quite as straightforward as that, and whilst certain parts of the old boys club do make it more difficult for women and thats bad, and I wish we were more represented in centres of power, I think sometimes we forget that actually some men would have loved their lives to be very different and actually got some of the moments and freedoms that some women experience, but don't because of the social expectation and pressure that they have to go out to work, have the career and provide for the family.

working9while5 · 07/11/2011 14:08

Yes, catgirl, have a strop, shout, abuse people and leave because some people think differently to you Hmm - oh, sorry, are being "purposefully obtuse".

The point you make was NOT the main point of the article, not even vaguely, which was about the impact on women of specific threats of violence e.g. rape. That is the main point of the article, yet the thread has arisen out of a possible interpretation based entirely on subtext.

Whatmeworry · 07/11/2011 14:18

I believe the time for silence is over. If we want to build a truly fair and vibrant community of political debate and social exchange, online and offline, it's not enough to ignore harassment of women, LGBT people or people of colour who dare to have opinions. Free speech means being free to use technology and participate in public life without fear of abuse ? and if the only people who can do so are white, straight men, the internet is not as free as we'd like to believe.

Who here actually believes that the only people who can "use technology and participate in public life without fear of abuse" are white straight men?

And if you do not believe it, where does it leave the rest of her essay?

A better ending thought might be that Free Speech only exists if people are brave enough to speak freely.

working9while5 · 07/11/2011 14:22

That could absolutely be a better ending, fair enough. I don't believe white straight men can use technology and participate in public life without fear of abuse personally and it was probably poorly written in this regard. Doesn't change that the main point is about using rape threats to silence women writers though.

LucyStone · 07/11/2011 14:27

I'd argue that forcing a woman to choose between family or a career is a pretty big limitation. but yes, I'd say the hostility towards stay at home dads is pretty... what's the word? either way, it's still a feminist issue, because the attitude reaffirms gender stereotypes. i have a ds, and gender stereotypes are a big bugbear of mine... my mother regularly treats his love of what she deems girls toys with a sense of disdain, which is disheartening to say the least. gender stereotypes put expectations on boys to behave in certain ways which aren't always compatible with the boy. but these stereotypes also label certain behaviours as feminine, teaching boys that such traits are undesirable. it's that which leads to an element of the boys = better than girls argument. i did have more to add, but typing on my phone is taking forever, and I've forgotten half of it. Blush

LucyStone · 07/11/2011 14:31

Thanks for c + p ing that again, wmw. again. i don't think the author is saying those men never receive abuse. i think she's saying, on the whole they receive less abuse, and therefore hold the most power to do something about it. that's how i read it.

quietlyafraid · 07/11/2011 14:34

Exactly Lucy, which is why I find the whole article actually bloody offensive as it reaffirms the fact that women feel more threatened by sexual threats and that stops them from talking... rather than addressing the fact that threats are directed at all people at the point that they think will be the weakest. By saying rape threats and sexual comments mean women are less likely to speak, it actually serves to perpetuate that rather than reduce it. The real issue is not being addressed because the writer is playing the victim and seems to like playing the victim as it suits her cause. Thats not feminism and its not a feminist problem. Pretending it is, actually reaffirms all those stereotypes and does not stop the core of the issue.

Charbon · 07/11/2011 14:39

The author hasn't said that white, straight male writers are immune from abuse. Neither has anyone on this thread.

I think she has inferred that white, straight male writers are not as frequently abused on the internet because of their colour, sex or heterosexuality, as female writers are because of their sex.

If that is the writer's inference and is her opinion, then I share it.

Thanks for the responses to the alternative scenario I posted earlier. I'm still puzzled about why there's any doubt that the comments this writer received were misogynist, or any confusion that women are more at risk of sexual violence than men (and therefore threats of it are inescapably gendered).

QuietlyAfraid there was a similar thread last week about the way society is structured disadvantages men as well as women and I explained that feminism actually seeks to remove those inequalities and create better expectations for men and women. I don't know why you think otherwise and I have never seen a feminist post on here that argues against that. I've seen lots of posts from anti-feminists arguing that women are more natural care-givers and supporting the status quo in the mistaken belief that men and women are served better by these societal structures.

Whatmeworry · 07/11/2011 14:47

Doesn't change that the main point is about using rape threats to silence women writers though.

Sure, but if you have been around the Internet long enough you know that people will throw nasty stuff at you if they disagree with you vehemently enough - just look at MN, which is fairly tightly moderated!.

What they throw depends on where they see your soft spot (sex, race, religion etc). This article could have been written by anyone getting abuse for their views on the 'Net, its just the form it takes that changes. Women get rape hate, blacks will get black hate etc etc

My take on LP is that she is a fairly confrontational journo, and that either she (i) has been protected from Internet feedback on her views by mainly being on newspapers in the past (far less responses) and is still a bit naive, or (ii) this is just another one of her confrontational articles and its done to boost traffic and reputation.

I incline towards (ii) in her case....

Thus I don't think think this is a "rape" issue per se, I think its a "slag off someone you disagree with with every thing you can throw at them" issue. I also think she is deliberately aiming it to get a shocked response from people who are not that familiar with the Internet and its nature. Anyone who has ever seen an Alt.Net flame war is probably going "So?"

And then it comes down to should you - could you even - censor these people. And my take on that is ultimately , no.

LucyStone · 07/11/2011 14:47

But in general, men do hold the majority of power on the internet. but i don't wish to rely on men to defend me. what we need is people to challenge hate speech, regardless of if they hold the power to stop it, or if they're the oppressed. i try to avoid insults in general, but I'm not going to wait for someone to speak in my defence. we need unity, and we need everyone to speak out against hate speech. would be interesting to see a cross section of threats used against men, and how many of them don't seek to diminish a gender, race or sexuality etc by insulting or threatening men. does that make sense? sorry if it doesn't.

noblegiraffe · 07/11/2011 14:51

Thanks to catgirl for her patient pointing out of the issues with the article that I, among others, have been trying to get across. I'm sorry that you felt you had to leave this thread.

The article starts 'You come to expect it as a woman writer' and lists 'vitriol, insults and death threats'. It then moves onto sexual threats. If she meant to say that men receive vitriol, insults and death threats too, she wouldn't have specified 'woman' so early on. And she wouldn't have suggested that straight white men can use the internet without fear of abuse. That is worth challenging, whether she meant without abuse, or fear of abuse, both are wrong. Nowhere does she acknowledge that men receive abuse too and it makes her final paragraph look ridiculous.

I don't know if she thinks that men don't receive abuse, that certainly seems to be the impression of some of the posters on here. Some are saying 'we don't know what sort of hate mail men receive because they don't talk about it' (and this is despite me posting several examples of white males talking about their hate mail). One poster said that she couldn't recall two particular straight white males receiving death threats -although a quick google would reveal that they did. Instead of researching the issue, some people seem to be saying 'well, these women are writing articles about it, if it was a problem for men too, I'd have heard about it, and I haven't, hence the problem doesn't exist or can't be as bad for them'.

LeninGrad · 07/11/2011 14:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noblegiraffe · 07/11/2011 14:55

I'm still puzzled about why there's any doubt that the comments this writer received were misogynist

I think the issue is whether LP received the abuse because she was a woman. Whether it is an attempt to silence women, or merely an attempt to silence LP. She said she was told to fellate bankers because of some political opinion she expressed. So what attracted the abuse would appear to be her political opinion not her sex. The abuse itself was undoubtedly gendered, but that doesn't mean that if a man had written the same article the abuser would have left him alone, merely possibly found some other, more suitable form of abuse.

LeninGrad · 07/11/2011 15:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.