to not understand the definiton of racism?

[191011]

An obvious namechange here as I understand that this has potential to deteriorate. But please don't let it, this is a construct I am struggling to understand.
I just don't understand how if I said "All Italians are miserable eeijts" how that can technically be construed as racist. Unpleasant, yes, unnecessary, yes, offensive, yes, but it isn't strictly racist is it? I'm not entirely convinced it's xenophobia either, as in my mind, that is dislike/fear of all things foreign.
I know something is defined as racist if someone deems it racist, but, surely, that's got to fit within logical boundaries.
AIBU to want some better minds than mine to help me comprehend this?

I do understand your two examples are different. But what I'm trying to say is, if you're thinking 'which of these can I get away with', that is not on.

Some people do do that, I'm afraid.

MillyR because the main reason for phrasing it so carefully would be to avoid the attentions of those who are actively looking for racism. If I were writing a book I'd probably use a phrase like yours.

It's just an example anyway. The point being that there is a difference between me saying that I think the Chinese set a good example in educating their children that I think we could learn from and Alf Garnett bellowing about 'coons'.

Some would say there is no difference at all and that I contest.

Btw, when you say culture is a 'real thing you can study' - well, yes, I agree. But then, you could also, if you so chose, collect data on every single (say) green-eyed person you could find to see if they were unusually jealous. And in the past, people have collected just that kind of information.

Cross-post - I do see that point, of course, there is a big difference. Which is not to say one is right and the other is wrong - but yes, there is a difference.

Elladee, the other reason I used the education example is that ages ago I mentioned casually in some thread that I thought the Chinese did a better job with education then we are doing and was declared a racist no better than Hitler.

onager - yes, but thinking more deeply, all developing countries have a sense that education is the route out of poverty, therefore education is valued - often because it is provided at a cost - often minimal.

We are lucky that we have a free education system, free libraries, with a reasonable internet usage to access information, mainly free/cheap museums ...... and we have a dire rate of literacy and numeracy - I do oft wonder if education wasn't 'free' whether it would be valued more.

I work with a wonderful Jamaican lady, who tells me that Jamaicans are indeed (sterotypically) thick and lazy workshy feckers but shes bloody brill at parents evening with the 3rd generation kids on sink estates who are brought up by the original immigrant grandparents. The West indian grandparents like the 'no bull' approach ..... education is your route out to success.

I don't think it is about avoiding the attention of people looking for racism. I think it is about being clear in what you mean. Your statement required a series of qualifying statements to explain what was meant by the original statement. It is simply more succinct to convey the meaning with one statement.

As you have said, it does depend on context. Referring to Chinese people taking education seriously could be perceived as racist if it was said in the context (and in the presence of) of an underachieving black or white child and a child whose ethnicity was Chinese in a particular British school. If it was said in the context of a conversation about education systems in the 21st century in different countries, then it would be unlikely to be perceived as racist.

Well, that sounds like it was a fun thread!

I can see both sides - obviously if someone was upset by it I see why, but it really does hit you when you get that sort of reaction.

Ah, now I know why fat people are still discriminated against, everyone else is protected by legislation so they're the last group it's socially acceptible to hate. Gotta hate someone after all, but you can't risk being racist ;)

the word 'all' is the racist word in question. You can't use a generic race, religion, area etc. to describe their failings. The word 'some' would be acceptable as it acknowledges that this does not apply to ebery said person of the above label?,(for want of a better word).
peachy some nigerians are conmen, esp. those in the papers, but as on every societu their are those that work hard for a living.
you cant tar every person with the same brush and most peop
le within each community will be honest (ish).

Obese people do have some protection in law under the Disability Discrimination Act.

true Milly, but I said 'socially accptable' . A forum member could express a negative opinion about an obese person and their 'moral turpetude' (an example I saw recently) and many people would chime in to agree that they should be a) shunned or b) openly mocked.

I think it is true Fiendish that there is a kind of social acceptability about making remarks about people who others consider to be too fat, too thin, who smoke, who have a regional accent, who live in rural areas, who live in cities, who dress a certain way and various other examples. Weight is certainly a major one at the moment and responses to it seem to be getting more extreme.

But I think it remains the case that there are very many people who, regardless of what they say, would be more likely to have an overweight white friend than a black friend, or would be more likely to employ an overweight white person than an average weight black person, or would be more concerned about moving in to a street with a number of black families than with a number of overweight white people.

But I think there are major issues with prejudice in health provision when it comes to people who are overweight.

Prejudice, or exasperation? Most people are fat because they eat too much. It's not usually a condition that strikes at random, such as cancer.

If I banged my head repeatedly against the wall because I enjoyed the feeling, then complained to my doctor about headaches and dizziness, my doctor would tell me to stop banging my head against the wall. And probably be exasperated if I continued and ended up needing brain surgery as a result.

As some posters have said, context is everything with ideas and perceptions of different people and races. People in this country see Chinese people who are successful, who travel, who study engineering/maths/business/whatever. We are never presented with their workshy/illiterate/lazy people so people find it easy to speak about the Chinese valuing education.
In this country white people are only ever presented with stories about black people/Jamaicans/Nigerians who are doing something wrong or not doing anything at all i.e. lazy or criminal. There is little value in this society or in the media of presenting black people as homeowners/honest/workers of any kind.

On the one hand Troisgarcons says that some of the worst racism comes from ethnic minorities speaking about other ethnic minorities, then she presents a story about a 'wonderful' Jamaican woman who thinks every Jamaican (except her!) is lazy and lives on sink estates and loves original 'straight talking' immigrants. Is it possible to serve up any more ignorant racist stereotypes? If this is a true story, this straight talking Jamaican would know that many Jamaicans, like every other group in society, are buying their own homes, moving out to the suburbs and sending their children to private schools or supplementary schools and private tutoring. You can't move around the counties outside London without tripping over Black people who have moved out for suburban homes and good schools. No Black person I know would tolerate being lectured byTroisgarcon's Jamaican acquaintance who clearly hates her own race/nationality.

I think that this is quite well put.

And I think it's ok so long as there's no malice or, as the song puts it, crime.

According to the McPherson report, after the inquiry into the Stephen lawrence murder, a racist incident is an incident in which ANYBODY finds offence in what is said. Thank goodness this is the criteria which is used by most public bodies.
You can think what the hell you like but don't voice it or act on it.
Fairly simple really.