To wonder if some men really do have some kind of blind spot for mess...

[dozyrosie]

My DP can not seem to see the same mess that I can see, he never seems to know what needs cleaning and tidying in the house without instruction and lots of nagging. Now I am far from some kind of OCD clean freak, and as I am 24 PG fully acknowledged that I may well just be nesting. But DP seems to be partially sighted and can't do many chores properly that don't involve some kind of electric gadget or power tool that or he just can't be arsed. So I'm on the verge of giving up and just doing everything my self, it might actually be easier.

Well hang on, you're saying that every time you try to assert yourself you get walked all over, to the point that it builds up and you get livid? Does this happen with everyone you deal with or just your DP? Maybe it's him not listening rather than you not asserting yourself?

Please don't give up and start doing everything, it will not be easier in the long run. Nip this in the bud now. My DH also has a mum that does everything and had no idea how to look after himself. I really wish I'd twigged exactly what was going on the first time he started gradually slacking. I wish I'd understood exactly why it pisses me off so much. Then I would have stamped that behaviour out 7 years ago, instead of struggling with it now.

Have a chat with him about it. Tell him he's not doing his share, it's really unfair and disrespectful to expect you to do it for him, and that he needs to start pulling his weight now. Then ask him how he wants to address the issue, but don't let him cherry pick the bits he likes and leave you with all the bits you hate! Good luck! :)

If some people do have a "blind spot for mess" then it would be some people, not some men.

So YABU

Label the iron a "power tool" [hgrin]

maybe his standards of clean are different to yours. my fiancee is v messy, but i knew she was like before we moved in together

There are 3 reasons your Dh does not tidy or clean:

1. He is lazy; and/or

1. He has lower standards of cleanliness than you; and/or

1. He knows you will eventually do it if he leaves it for long enough.

Please note that 'not being able to see it' is not in that list.

Bertie I try to assert my self nicely but it does not sink in / he does not listen so I get fed up of asking, then all of a sudden (as far as DP is concerned) I blow a fuse in a really big way. As far as other people are concerned (at work for example) I can ask them to do something in my usual laid back way an generally it gets done first time round because try to be pleasant and reasonable about it.

pally I think a very firm but fair chat is the answer. I know that he resents my FIL for treating MIL like crap, so maybe that's the angle I need to come from. I'd just have to be very careful because FIL is a touchy subject for DP as FIL walked out (for another woman) and then came back (but that's another story). All I can say is MIL is possibly the most stupid forgiving woman I have ever met.

BeaHellZeBub brilliant idea, I'll make a label for the kitchen sink immediately.

Beta Sadly all 3 of your points are exactly right!

Thanks everyone for pointing out what is actually blindingly obvious DP needs a boot up his arse and I really need to grow a pair. Dozy by name...

My children's father was as tidy as I was and more domestically organised. My sons are tidier than one of my daught ers. I don't think it's a gender thing unless they were brought up in a sexist household. Never marry a man who has been looked after his mother and lived at home as you sadly have. Anyway if he is not intersted in tidying up then why not you do tidying up and give him a different job to do eg he does 100% of the family washing and cooking and you never do any of that.

Then you do tidying up and he washes and cooks. Would that work? if he didn't wash or cook he'd haev nothing to wear or eat and you would never ever do it for him.

It might not be a strict division between men and women, but just going on the people I've known (which isn't conclusive evidence I admit) the people who have lived in total hovels, Kim and Aggie level of crap, have all been men living on their own.

A few years back my DH would never have done a thing in the house until you couldn't get in for the mess. When my MIL first visited after we moved in together she said it was the first time she'd had a meal at his place because previously there had never been enough room with all the clutter, dirty plates etc to host a dinner! He's improved with lots of nagging negotiation and is now trained to load/unload the dishwasher, put shopping away rather than pile the bags in the living room and take things out as needed, use a bin rather than the floor for crisp bags and such, put dirty clothes in the basket and put the outside bins out on the right days, but for other things the best approach is still to say can you take the rubbish out/empty the cat's tray/go and buy milk etc. Otherwise he claims not to notice it needs doing. It often is quicker just to do it then expend energy going on about it. You get worn down by nagging and the rest of the family see you as a harridan always harping on about something or other. Not right but true.

"I try to assert my self nicely but it does not sink in / he does not listen... As far as other people are concerned (at work for example) I can ask them to do something in my usual laid back way an generally it gets done first time round because try to be pleasant and reasonable about it."

There you go then... it's not that you're not being assertive, but that he isn't listening! Sounds like he doesn't have much respect for you :(

I agree with MoreBeta and I can quite often be found having one of those 3 reasons. He does see it, he chooses to ignore it for whatever reason. If his mother has always done everything for him then I suggest that the 1st or 3rd reason are more likely. He has never actually had the need to assess reason 2).

That does not mean you get to do everything. He is an adult, he knows how to use a hoover/iron/washing machine etc. It isn't rocket science. I bet he manages to do a lot more taxing stuff at work (and probably manages to keep his desk tidy too - because no other mug colleague will).

Frank discussion is the order of the day. If that doesn't work, assess whether you can put up with this shit for the rest of your life. It is a big deal and household responsibilities are important. You haven't said whether you have children already - but it will get worse when you do have them. All the childcare will be your responsibility too. Wifework by Susan Maushart should be essential reading may be a good read for you.

**

I have not spoken to him about all of this yet. Basically he came in and asked what I was up to, I said MNing (it was not this post at the time). He said anything interesting, I told him basics of post I was reading. Then I said I'm just going to do the washing up. He then said "errm ...I'll do it if you want". I of course said yes please and after getting over the shock thought that at some point DP may have seen this post, even though I did not leave it open while I was away from my laptop. Maybe he just cot a case of MN paranoia and quite rightly thought I was moaning talking about him to you all. I'm really hoping this is not a one off if not I might just have to back it up with a chat. I will definitely get this sorted by the time DD is here. I will not expend my energy looking after a grown man when need I to look after my DD.

Xenia As much as DP can annoy me I don't want to see him live on a diet of toast. Nice idea but he can't cook at all.

DrCoconut "It often is quicker just to do it then expend energy going on about it. You get worn down by nagging ...Not right but true." this is exactly how I feel.

HandDived No DC yet. I am 24 weeks PG with DD1. I want to set a good example for her, so does not take crappy treatment from her DP when she is older. I will look up that book too.

Just read that back to my self. He has seen this whole post hasn't he. If he has he hasn't said anything. Oh well maybe it worked if he did.

I am one of the people who might be accused of 'not seeing mess'. OK so I am bordering on having a teeny tiny bit of an MH problem with regard to being a slob, but I do not have a penis to blame it on.
I do think that sometimes lowering the standards makes for a happier home, a bit of mess never killed anyone, and constant scrubbing and flicking with dusters and never-a-book-out-of-place makes life miserable. However, in any heterosexual relationship, the man should be doing his fair share of the domestic work. His fair share is enough to enable both partners to have an equal amount of leisure time.

Always live with a man before embarking on a long term commitment. If he is messy, that is a reason to consider whether or not to continue, if his standards consistently fall short of yours.

Solid I have never thought of "fair share is enough to enable both partners to have an equal amount of leisure time". It makes me chuckle that you can lay blame on your penis.

blueshoes We where in love and committed long before we moved in together. There were new life forms under his bed when he lived with MIL and his car was and still is a skip on wheels. I was fully aware of what I was letting myself in for but was under the dozy impression that I could some how "train" him.

I believe it is naive to expect to change a man. If anything, he gets worse in a long term relationship. My mother never managed to 'improve' my father - I witnessed it first hand so don't have any rose tinted glasses and always recommend living together as an acid test.

There is a difference between 'person (irrespective of gender) who is really not bothered about housework/doesn't mind living in a tip' and 'man who thinks that housework is women's work and therefore will not only do none of it but will berate the woman for not doing enough even though he actively makes much more mess than she does and both of them work.'

Thi sis the real real probolem with women who enable male uselessness. You sday he will ",live on toast". Well let him and make him cook for you all every night. if my older sone can learn to cook for the family and he's early 20s why can't your bhusband? It's absolutely dead easy. If you can read you can cook. Howeve ryou obviously like the power of feeling only you can cook. It must subconsciously make you feel good so you enable all this male uselessness and therefore you will never solve the issue.

With my son it's not even a husband wife thing, is it? He's a young man. The twins have got recipes from the internet, the 3 of them have gone out to buy the stuff and then cook it. Why can't your husband who is presumably more mature than a young man do it? Presumably he can read a recipe on the internet and isn't mentally subnormal. The reason he never will is that you tolerate and enable his failures.

Make him 100% in charge of cooking for everyone. He can make it a really fun task for him and the children to learn.

My DP sometimes sees dirt and mess that I don't and tends to clean things much more thoroughly than I do- its nothing to do with gender.

Its partly just natural inclination and partly down to upbringing. DP is just a very clean person (and a bit of a germ phobe) while I'm a bit more relaxed; his mum was not the type to run around doing everything for her DC and encouraged them to be independent. I intend to do the same with my DC.

Xenia Yes I am becoming a uselessness enabler, well put. And you'r right about the cooking making me feel good. It's actually it's one of the few household tasks I really enjoy, and always get some thanks for. My DP is 26 so probably not much older than your son, but unfortunately unlike you and seaweedhead he has never been made to be independent. My MIL genuinely loves all cleaning and cooking, she looks forward to doing her ironing because it makes her "feel good to look after people".

I'm so glad you are both encouraging your DC to be self sufficient, that really is a sign of good parenting. Rather than feeling good because you have people that rely on you 100%.

When DD is born, I'm very aware that I could end up being a bed example for her. If I can't bring up her to be strong and independent then I will feel I have failed as a parent. My DM was a very career orientated woman so me and DF just had to get on and sort ourselves out. So you would think if I had that example set for me then I would not let DP rely me to do everything.

DP is definitely no through and through SOB he does have his good points. I will talk to him about how we can set a good example for DD. I'll ask him how he would want DD to be treated by others when she is older. Maybe this will get him thinking about how he treats me sometimes.

How do you teach DC to be self-sufficient enough to look after themselves, and only look after others when really needed or when they want to? Good parenting seems to be one massive balancing act. How do you know you are teaching DC the right thing when what you are trying to teach them could be a matter of opinion and judgement, when there is no obvious right or wrong?

I must seem very dozy and clueless but parenting is very new to me and you all seem very experienced.

Sorry again for the long post, I seem to have some how completely changed the subject.

Hello OP - what does your DH think about the totally unfair division of labour in his parents' home?

My DH is quite messy and I do most of the house stuff untill having a baby 4 weeks ago. My DH had to do everything and has been great at it. What is even better is he now realsis how much I do and how tricky it can be getting jobs done with a baby so I know he will not have unrealsitic expectations of me being a SAHM. I am glad this has happened as I was starting to get pissed off about him not doing much but as he works longer hours than me (up at 5 and home at 8) I felt mean getting him to do jobs. We did compramise and have a cleaner every 2 weeks which lightens the load. I would say sit down and make a list of daily, weekly monthly jobs together and designate them, put on fridge where you can both see it (this worked with my exboyfriend who was a lazy sod and worked less hours than me.

How? I think if v oth parents work full time the chidlren just have to. I have a list of about 1000 reasons why children benefit from both parents work full time and this self sufficiency and ability to cook would be on the list although there's nothing to stop a woman at home ensuring the same thing.

I suppose I define myself throough a very successful career which delights me 365 days a year and is existing and rewarding. I adore the 5 children too (as most fathers who have similar careers would as well) b ut I don't get my main satisfaction from feeding them or cleaning the house although gosh in 27 years as a mother I will have done more cleaning than anyone on this thread I expect even those who don't work simply because of the number of years.

Univesrity helps. If sons and daughters go away there then I am sure that helps. My daughtesr probably didn't cook that much before they left for university but certainly h ad to there. It's a forced self sufficiency. My son cooking every night for him and his brothers just evolved without my even asking and I'm very grateful and it's good for all of them.

Also I wasn't from a sexist home and ours isn't so the children just don't think of certain things as women's work. Indeed one son in a boys' school came home this week twice appalled by his teachers suggesting women cook. He mentioned to one that his brother cooked and he said something back about that can't be very good (which of course is sexist and untrue ) but there was a 12 year old boy appalled by sexism. I doubt he would have been if he were from a hiome where women clean and serve and men go out and earn.