to complain to the school about what rugby coach said?

[olderyetwider]

GS (11) has just started rugby coaching as out of hours activity at school. The coaches are sports students from local university. Gs enjoyed his first session very much. While telling me about it he said that the coach said it was a tough game, and they mustn't 'bitch out' when tackled etc. I explored this a bit and apparently the coach said that it means acting like a girl when faced with bigger players etc. (GS also said coach said not to tell teachers about the language)

I can't stand that word, or the denigration of girls implied by it, and it's not the way we've brought him up to think about girls

Is it me being a humourless old feminist, or should I complain?

[MIFLAW]

I am a man and, in theory, I agree with the OP. Of course rugby's a rough sport - it's rough within the rules and players are increasingly encouraged to bend those rules to be rougher still as they get older.

But that isn't the complaint. The complaint is that being unwilling to be rough is to be a "bitch" - and the coach then explicitly said that "bitch" here is synonymous with "girl".

So, yes, he was out of order, and shouldn't have said it, especially to a group of boys who will almost automatically idolise him.

BUT - is complaining a good idea? Almost certainly not. Best case - the coach gets dismissed, all the boys are unhappy because they've lost a coach, your son gets blamed.

Worst case - coach dosn't get dismissed, it "leaks out" that he got in trouble because you complained, your son gets rifdiculed by him and all other boys.

This might be a time to wait and see whether the game is worth the candle - i.e. was this a one-ff clumsy attempt at bonding with "the lads" or is this man a consciously offensive sexist? Only time will tell.

Tough one, though, and this is just my view.

[StillSquiffy]

You're right to be annoyed, wrong to complain. Tell your son that the student coach is living in the dark ages and leave it at that. Next he'll be telling your GS to 'man up' and not be a 'girls blouse' and it'll annoy you too. But your GS will get his values from whole range of people and this guy is just one prat out of all the people who will influence him. Complaining will humiliate your GS.

[mumblechum1]

You should also remember that these guys are probably doing these lessons on a voluntary basis, ie unpaid and in their own time so although of course they should be sensible, if you complained this guy could well be pissed off, jack it in, and the classes would be short of a coach and possibly cancelled.

[handsomeharry]

I think a discussion around the use of the word 'bitch' would be a great one to have with your GS.

I wouldn't be complaining though. Not a big thing IMO.

[olderyetwider]

MrSpoc, I don't know how you get that impression. You assume that I put words in GS's mouth (and crap in his head) just from the fact that I'd describe myself as a feminist. How is that not offensive?

I have no objection at all to kids playing rugby being told it's a tough game and that it takes guts, that they need to learn to take the rough stuff without complaining and so on. (GD is a rather fearless horsewoman and also has to be tough and physically and mentally resilient but she's never been told not to 'bitch out'. She might get called a wuss or similar if she went round rather than jump out hunting)

It's the 'like a girl' bit, and also the word 'bitch' casually used to describe girls that I object to, not the message he's giving about the sport and its demands

[youllbewaiting]

Is 'man-up' and 'grow a pair' going to be challenged on MN in the future?

[worraliberty]

FFS

[sunshineandbooks]

squeaky - it's not about intentionally looking for denigration. It's about the overall cultural backdrop.

If someone I knew said I was behaving like a bitch about something, I'd know the insult meant behaving horribly, rather than making an issue out of my gender. I'm not saying the coach himself thinks badly of women.

But language is powerful and it sows the seeds for how we perceive others in our social groups. This is a well-known and long-studied social phenomenon. If words that have been traditionally associated with one sex (bitch/whore/cunt/slag etc etc) are consistently associated with negative meanings, they tend to affect the overall status of that group within wider society even when the insult itself can be used in a unisex manner, e.g. bitching.

[Whatmeworry]

You are not a parent of the child, this is not your call. It's not about you. Tell the parents if you are upset, then drop it.

[stealthsquiggle]

You would do GS no favours at all by complaining, IMHO. Yes, it's wrong, but the fact that GS remarked on it shows that he knows that he is wrong.

Rugby is a rough, physical sport, and the coaches will be "mean" - not always constructive, not always fair. DH took a very firm line on this (mainly, I suspect, to stop me rushing in to protect my PFB) and told DS that being mean and unfair was part of the job of a sports teacher and that he would just have to put up with it. Armed with that, DS has come to see past the "meanness" and now really likes and respects his rugby coach - and it appears to be mutual. Unfair as it may be (and it is) I see a high correlation between those DC whose parents did rush in to complain and those DC who don't get picked for teams.

GS will come across politically unsound people everywhere in life - think of this as a learning experience for him.

(except, the one bit I really don't like is telling them to keep secrets - that's wrong, and a gentle word is in order there [contradicting self])

[olderyetwider]

Not drip feeding, should have said. Sorry to those who said it's his parents' business, both GCs have lived with us permanently since they were toddlers so it is us that needs to deal with day to day stuff like this.

[squeakytoy]

Oh ffs.. they were not asked to "keep a secret".. ... the person teaching them is a voluntary student who is not much older than them, who realised he had sworn (albeit very mildly) in front of a bunch of 11 year old (who probably use far worse themselves all the time).. and he asked them not to grass him up to the teachers for swearing...

[handsomeharry]

Agree with you totally squeakytoy.

[catgirl1976]

YABU - I tell men to stop bitching / stop being bitches etc etc. Agree it is now a sexless term - especially in the context used

Also - its a rugby pitch not the WI.

[spiderpig8]

PLEASE DON'T COMPLAIN !!!
YOU will be doing your GS no favours at all!!!

[Salmotrutta]

That's what I thought too squeakytoy.

[MrSpoc]

Op the reason i said it was simple really,

Coach said tough game, and they mustn't 'bitch out

You said I explored this a bit and apparently the coach said that it means acting like a girl i garentee that the coach did not back up his comment by saying it means acting like a girl. in fact because you put in your post i am a feminist then i bet when you explored what is meant you put pressure on your GS to say what he thinks you actualy want him to say.

[Blu]

It is seriously against any Child Protection Policy to tell a child to keep secrets of any kind.

Whether this coach is running a rugby session or 'origami folding to music' he is primarily a teacher of children and needs to stick within good practice.

Not sure how I would deal with it without making TOO much official fuss and causing embarrassment for GS,

[squeakytoy]

They were not asked to "keep a secret".. they were asked not to tell the teachers that this student swore.... can you not see a very subtle difference there?

[spiderpig8]

Blu- that's ridiculous.they are always making 'secret' presents for mother's day, christmas etc at school, brownies etc.

[Salmotrutta]

But Blu, it possibly isn't a case of asking them to "keep a secret" in the way you mean. It's very possibly more a case of "Ooops, shouldn't have said that! - don't tell the teacher lads!"

[stealthsquiggle]

OK - so maybe just re-inforce with GS that being asked to keep quiet about something when you don't feel comfortable doing so is not reasonable or binding and leave it at that? I think squeakytoy's interpretation is almost certainly spot-on, but the wider child protection principle remains.

OTOH, OP, your GS clearly does talk to you because he told you all this. That's great - and all the more reason not to complain, IMHO, because if your complaining caused GS problems, then next time (if there were one) he might not tell you...

[spiderpig8]

I am thinking that if you find this so offensive, then perhaps Rugby isn't the sport for your GS!!!!!

[Hungrydragon]

This probably won't help but one of my favourite exchanges on a sports pitch between two young men went as thus:

Boy A: If your going to be a girl about it
Boy B: I am clearly not being a girl about it mate, on account you is still all alive and breathing.


There had been a Boy v Girls charity hockey game the week before, the boys were still recovering from what they thought would've been an easy game ...

[stealthsquiggle]

LOL Hungrydragon - the girls at DS's school are currently asserting their right to play rugby. I think the boys' main objection is the thought of being beaten like they were at cricket.