to to wonder when horrible people have to start taking responsibility for their actions?

[AKMD]

Having been on MN for a while, I've definitely mellowed quite a bit because there always seems to be a possible extenuating circumstance behind people's bad behaviour, even if it stretches the imagination somewhat. For example, I understand having compassion for someone who was brought up in less than ideal conditions, but when does that person's behaviour become their own responsibility rather than that of their parents, who were probably brought up badly themselves? I remember when the Baby P case was in the media reading a column that said that, had Baby P survived, he would probably have grown up to be described as a 'feral yob' (or something like that) :( I see lots of posts on here where awful, nasty, disgusting behaviour is excused because of bad upbringings, addictions, pregnancy (?!), PND, work stress etc. and wonder where the point of tolerance ends. Example is the tenancy thread on at the moment over evicting a pregnant, non-paying tenant, who according to some posters should be allowed to stay on rent-free because of her pregnancy. Another one the other day was about someone's sister's behaviour, being excused by having been brought up in a separate house from her siblings by a father who abused her mother. Another one was where the OP's DD was being bullied by a girl with possible SN and, again, lots of posters were saying that the DD should put up with it because of the SN.

I'm rambling, but AIBU to wonder how lines are drawn between behaviour being excused because of 'extenuating circumstances' and being condemned as the person's own responsibility?

Oh honestly, are you really comparing someone not paying rent (don't know the reason as haven't seen the thread- maybe she's waiting on HB payments?) to people murdering a baby? Not paying rent is 'awful, nasty and disgusting', really? What rubbish. Someone's sister being a bit rude to them after a childhood of abuse is 'awful, nasty and disgusting'? Really you can have NO IDEA how awful some people's lives are if you use such hyperbole over people who clearly are victims, even if they are then being a bit unreasonable later. Personally I think that kind of empathy deficit from the over-privileged is much more 'awful, nasty and disgusting' than anything you're complaining about.

Mmm, but I've seen lots of posts (esp. on AIBU but that's par for the course) where the OP gets a flaming because doesn't she know that 0.1% of all nightmare houseguests were made to eat custard tart every day by an over-controlling mother and their behaviour now is the expression of their out-of-control, previously suppressed, desires for chocolate cake? And the OP is an absolute cow-bag for daring to judge them without thinking of this. Get a LIFE and stop judging people for taking doggy-bags of food home from your fridge!

Ok, that was a made-up scenario but the general structure appears on lots of threads, just with worse language.

Ooo, first flaming. I'm pleasantly surprised at how long that took. Those examples were the ones I could think of off the top of my head where the explanations and excuses seemed a bit far-fetched. I don't mean to start a discussion over particular threads.

This is very wide subject though and it is difficult to get an answer.

For me it depends how serious the past experience is. Like the example of childhood abuse, in cases like this yes i make allowences for the person i'm dealing with. It doesn't matter that some people came out of it stronger and turned everything into positive etc. Some people can't and i've got sympathy for them.

On the other hand i've no sympathy for those who use silly excuses and do endless self-centred phychoanalysis of every second of their lives (the self-help books help that). My friend's husband used all the excuses for his nasty violence, one of them was 'i have witnessed violence when i was 8, i saw my father and uncle rowing' . In this case i say Get a grip and Grow Up.

Imo serious things do scar you for life and the recovery is long and complex. But not every tiny thing scars you for life.

i dont think there is any excuses to be honest

you choose your behaviour, you cant blame it forever on childhood injustices & other people.

There's a fairly prevalent model of human behaviour around nowadays, that suggests self-destructive, antisocial or just plain nasty behaviour always has a 'cause' in impersonal social structures, whether that's the economic or social system, parental influence or whatever. This kind of systemic approach to understanding human behaviour is seen as more compassionate, as it's supposed to take into account people's background and experience when evaluating their eventual behaviour.

There are links between destructive behaviour and parental abuse, poverty etc. No-one's disputing that. But to make the leap from acknowledging a link and assuming a cause is significant, as it assumes individual human beings have no autonomy, no agency or ability to shape their own lives. Effectively, it dehumanises people by assuming they have no more control over their actions than lab rats responding to stimuli.

Oddly enough, most of the sociologist types who make these claims don't actually believe it about themselves. They'd see themselves as eminently capable of changing their own circumstances through their own efforts. It's the poor, those who grow up amidst violence and drug addiction and crime who are helpless, like lab rats, in the face of stimuli to behave a particular way.

Thus, an attitude which claims to be compassionate is in fact dehumanising the people it's supposedly being compassionate about. It's profoundly condescending and - I think - deeply toxic and damaging to the people it professes to help, as it encourages people with difficult experiences to see themselves purely as victims, and as incapable of helping themselves escape their circumstances.

Theodore Dalrymple has written some thought-provoking books and essays about the ways in which the supposedly kind, compassionate culture of explanations in fact has appalling consequences for exactly the social groups it's intended to help.

Sample here

That was a very interesting link. Very sad too at what people will put up with because they don't think they have a choice.

I think it's an incredibly complex area of thought and behaviour.

I know from my own life that I don't feel I naturally have the skills to be a tactful, empathetic, happy, self-efficacious person. My partner has given me a bunch of strategies for dealing with some aspects of personal interaction, that have made my life unimaginably easier.

But I still find things hard on a daily basis, and probably come across as rude, arrogant or tactless to others, despite having had far more educational opportunities in caring, sharing environments than most people. I do try, but I am really not that good at relating to others or running my own life. So I try harder, and often get it wrong.

The education and niceness didn't deliver the life skills that would actually help, like humility, self-examination, empathy, hard work and striving for self-efficacy.

Are there ways of teaching those other than through the school of hard knocks? And could that teaching be extended to more people?

(I know the answer is yes, but am trying to generate constructive discussion)

in fact that's a plea: if anyone knows of an effective psychological bootcamp for adults, do please let me know and I'll join like a shot... bootcamp would be easier than mere real life...

It's called 'finding yourself' when you're a grown-up, and seems to me to involve finding the most dangerous place on the planet and canoeing through it.

actually it looks like Theodore Dalrymple/ AM Daniels could be a bit of the bootcamp I'm looking for - giving people the skills to live... thanks Wolef :-)

Canoeing still sounds more fun, sorry.

AKMD - canoeing and danger sound awesome to me but that's because they involve abdication of the usual responsibilities by being out of contact with normal life... every time I come back from the wilderness I think i could maybe be a better person because of it, but I never am for more than 10 minutes.