to think that the advantage of a classical education is that it enables you

[grovel]

in later life to despise the riches which it prevents you from attaining?

Education doesn't have to be useful all the time, though, does it? Granted, there are some things you need to learn in order to get a job. But other things you learn on the job (fixing the hoover, looking after kids and having relationships, etc) and yet more things we are all going to need to do to fill the thirty-year gap between finishing work and dying.

The most valuable transferable skills are being able to solve all sorts of problems, surely. Latin can help you do that as well as anything else. Most of us are not short of time and can learn all sorts of things.

Isn't part of your education at least about leading you to places no-one has ever been before? Signposts rather than a mere box of tricks.

< as you were ... (getting a bit earnest there)>

"The most valuable transferable skills are being able to solve all sorts of problems, surely. Latin can help you do that as well as anything else"

But picking up transferable skills while learning something that is fundamentally useful is, I assert, better than picking up transferrable skills while doing something fundamentally useless, such as Advanced Crosswords, Latin, or Oral Klingon.

Useful in what way, Piglet? (genuine question)

well, if you learn a lot of complicated terminology and logical connections via the medium of Chemistry, then you can find gainful employment writing software for the pharmaceutical industry. If you've done it via the medium of Latin - hm, not sure. (the writing of software is analagous to writing a novel. You have to have the relevant language skills but first and foremost you have to have something worth writing about. Hence my company employs a few pure software engineer types, AFAIK no classics grads and shedloads of PhD scientists.)

No argument that Chemistry is useful, but that doesn't mean that Latin isn't.

I only did Chemistry for a few years at school, so I have no personal experience of how useful it is over a life time. Do Chemists amuse themselves doing Chemistry at home, at weekends and in the evenings? Do retired Chemists live it up in garden sheds with their chemical concoctions? Is Chemistry a conversation topic that goes down well with your neighbour or mother in law?

Just wondering .

You'd be suprised

Thing is, secondary school kids timetables only have a limited amount of lessons in them. If you do Latin, something else has to give. DH deeply resents that he was forced to do it instead of Biology. He particularly dislikes the 'oh, but its useful if you want to do medicine' .... er well not quite so useful as Biology.

DDs school have Latin as a 'twilight' option - if you're keen you can do it after school. (same thing for Mandarin). Leaving the daytime time tablecrammed full with (what seems to me) far less optional subjects. Seems like a good approach.

At least your daughter's school offers it. And for those who like Biology, well that is the sort of thing they like.

I'm not saying that every school should provide Latin, but we are not doing our kids any favours if we undermine the importance of languages in general. In lots of other countries it is normal for people to grow up knowing at least two languages. I think that when you learn a new language you establish neurological connections in the brain that simply don't get laid down if you only speak the one. So in most other parts of the world they have actually developed parts of the brain that are completely unused in most native English speakers.

I think that's a shame. People in the UK think learning a language is too difficult for our kids, but we learn our first language at 1 or 2 years old. How hard can it be to learn Mandarin, say, at 11?

I did Latin GCSE (and two other MFL).

The style of exams is very different to MFL. It tangentially covered classical civilisation, poetry and grammar, as well as vocab.

Particularly useful was learning to guess wildly amd improvise for the translating a passage question... I swear you get extra marks for sheer chutzpah.

Yes, guessing, improvising, thinking on your feet - all important transferable skills ...

It tangentially covered classical civilisation
Did you learn about Caecilius ? We had to visit his house when we visited Pompeii, this being about the one thing that had stuck in DHs overcrowded memory.

Then back at the hotel we were talking to a teenager who was doing Latin who had been doing exactly the same thing over 3 decades later. Well, thats Classics for you.

... Yes, Caecillius (and Metella and the rest of the family). Iirc, all there for the anticipation of them becoming Pompeii-toast (I presume that was saved for A-level - but I was hanging on for it right through GCSE).

We also did very lame poetry. Caveat Emptor and all that. It made me think the bar was rather lower at that time for what constituted literature!

Caecilius did become Pompeii toast though. Last story in the first book. He was watched over by Cerberus as Pompeii fell, shortly after freeing Clemens. We covered that in Year 7 and were onto ladies shagging soldiers and then dragging their husband's bodies onto crosses by GCSE.

My poor Latin teacher having to teach that to a bunch of giggling 14 year olds...

solopower - you said what I wanted to say about the usefulness very nicely, so I shan't go on!

Am I right in thinking that only qualified electricians are allowed to wire plugs now? Anyhow, as well as being able to read a wide range of fascinating literature, I can wire a plug. Can't speak Klingon though, and I'm not that good at crosswords either, better at sudoku. Good at rambling on though...

Ilanthe - I did the same GCSE set text. Our Latin teacher took great pleasure in teaching that when she had an Ofsted inspector in the room; he seemed quite stunned!

Grimma - I don't think any school would get away with getting its students to take biology in place of Latin these days, and you are quite right in saying that biology is more useful than Latin if you want to do medicine. One of my A* students last year has gone on to do science A-Levels as he wants to do medicine, but he enjoyed the different opportunities of learning that doing Latin gave him. I taught more literary analysis than the English course provided, according to my students.

I usually kill Caecilius off at the end of my students' first year of Latin. We do some brilliant literature at GCSE, which, afaik, MFL do not cover. Last year we did some Tacitus which was brilliant fun. As well as translating, and literary analysis, I also got the students to re-write it as a crimewatch reconstruction and we recorded it and watched it. So, lots of transferable skills (including public speaking, PigletJohn) and the kids enjoyed it too! Surely that's not a bad thing?

Sounds fantastic, Jetgirl! Agree, language, culture. literature, history all feed into each other. Fascinating stuff.

Thanks solopower I work hard to make sure my lessons aren't the traditionally dull ones people assume Latin lessons are.

jetgirl Wed 12-Oct-11 22:00:49
"...Am I right in thinking that only qualified electricians are allowed to wire plugs now?"

No, you're wrong.
And "qualified electricians" is too vague.

Thanks for qualifying that for me. Apologies for my vagueness.