to be amazed that something as psychologically manipulative as X Factor is allowed on air?

[moondog]

I've been watcihng it for the 1st time.
I can't beleive they are allowed to toy with people's lives like this, building them up, playing with them and then casting them aside.

What an unbelievably unpleasant concept.
I feel tainted for having watched it.

is it 'just light entertainment' when the same people who watch (and love) X factor taunt their peers at school in similar manner because they don't fit in, are not as good at a subject, do not understand that they are being laughed at not with?

is it 'just light entertainment' when a group of friends end up taunting and bullying one of their gang so much that they commit suicide?

is it 'just light entertainment' when people with MH and SN issues are picked on in the community (anyone see Rosa Monckton's documentary on this?)?

because otherwise where do you draw the line? putting this stuff on prime time tv - having millions of people revelling in someone's difficulties and discomfort - is making the above behaviours acceptable. as someone said earlier on in the thread (although ironically I think they were trying to defend X factor) - this type of show (and there are many of them) desensitises people to base cruelty. is that really the way any of you want society to pan out?

it disgusts me that there are so many people willing ot defend this shit. try living that life - try being the person who is always laughed at/sneered at/made to feel that you don't fit in. then have someone come along, tell you that actually, everyone else is wrong - you are amazing, wonderful, the public will love you. they tell you this time and again. and then, when your moment comes, and you are ready for that tiny snippet of recognition - they turn on you. tell you that you are shit after all. try feeling that.

and no, I am not talking about constructive criticism (however harshly put) - been there, done that. and yes, i you want to be part of the arts world you have to learn how to take put downs at auditions. the difference is in the manipulation. being told you are nt right for the part (whether because of looks/talent/behaviour on the day/weight/whatever) is not the same as the build up that goes on with some of the vulnerable contestants.

and yet again - this is not about whether people with MH/SN/any bloody issues whatsoever should be 'allowed' to take part or not. it is about whether they shoudl be afforded some dignity and rights as a human being (and that goes for ALL the contestants). being encouraged to revel in someone else's misfortune is just not nice, tbh. and I really don't get why that is so hard to understand.

Bats - yep - soul murder - they were dying up there - betrayed by their mentors. Did you see their faces?

Soul Murder? Like hangings in bedlam?

Deary me. i imagine those who say such things were those people who were banned from watching ITV because it was the channel of the proles when they were children.

I get what you're trying to say Amimation and they were betrayed by their mentors. I wonder when exactly the contestants were told about the 'dramatic twist' to send not one, not two, not three, but four of them home at the same time? A week before the live show, when exactly. Call me cynical, but if the XF TV shedule cannot go over an extra 3 weeks and the producers know this in advance, why not let the judges choose only 3 people in their categories? No, they thought the dramatic twist would be brilliant television entertainment. Well it was downright nasty.

If the public votes a contestant off, fair enough you took your chances, that's what the programme is essentially supposed to be about, the chance. A proper chance. Not public manipulation and actual contestant exploitation and humiliation.

Oh christ.

So before the X-Factor, there was no bullying/no suicides as a result of bullying?

If you're talking about drawing lines, where do we draw the line at "reveling in someone else's misfortune"? I suppose sporting contests had better be done as well. Same with Masterchef etc.

Princess, I realise you're rather impassioned about this but I do think you're taking it all a bit too personally.

Betrayed by the mentors who never guaranteed that they would win? Those mentors? I'm still pmsl @ 'soul murder' - do you have any idea at all how hysterical that sounds?

Masterchef is sooooo sad when they lose.

Their lives will never be the same again.

Princess - Who commited suicide?
Who is so laughed at / sneered at & not fitting in? If their self-esteem was at such an all time low - how on earth did they have the confidence to get themselves on to X-factor. It is hardly like they all walk straight on to the stage? They go through a whole load of pre-screening. We get to see less than 10% of those who actually queue up.
Unless they have been living on the moon, they must know that there is an extremely strong liklihood that they won't win and that at some point they will get some strongly worded criticism that will be shown to the nation. Only one person wins. No one is forced to do this stuff - it is of their own free will.

since when does losing a contest = revelling in someone else's misfortune?

can you really not tell the difference?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. after all, you watch X factor and the ilk.

yes, i am impassioned about this. because I deplore the way that these things are viewed as acceptable by a society which should know better.

but no, I am not taking it personally at all.

of course bullying existed before X factor (not really sure what your point is there, tbh, except for an obvious straw man argument) - it was not, however encouraged and viewed as prime time entertainment.

princess dod you watch last night's show?

Who is it that is vulnerable?

Seriously, who?

"I'm still pmsl @ 'soul murder' - do you have any idea at all how hysterical that sounds?"

No. Tell me what's so funny?

Did you see their faces?

Maybe we've become desensitized to crumpled sobbing faces.

Oh animation people are tougher than you think.

Yes they were sad. Yes they cried. They'll get over it.

And those that really want to make a life out of their talent will keep on keepin' on.

I wonder why XF/BGT seems to cause more hand-wringing than, say, Big Brother or other reality programmes? BB - where the vulnerable person is removed from all sources of support and scrutinised 24/7. Or every other programme involving Joe Public, right down to Come Dine With Me, where people are edited to look stupid/sly/bitchy/foolish. Jeremy Kyle, who clearly has guests with MH issues, and who viciously attacks every aspect of their lives and selves.

They're criticised sometimes, sure, but never seem to spark as much "Soul Murder Hysteria" as XF does.

Sue P, I think it might have something to do with the fact that it is so hugely popular & watched by unprecedented numbers of people!

I'm not sure it's as simple as that -BB was madly popular in its day and is much worse imho.

Sue, I couldn't agree with you more. All the reality tv stuff is abhorrent - the attitudes that is encourages are just as bad.

Or those poor exploited fat women on Gok wan's tv shows, who are foisted into control knickers and purple polyester wrapover tops, and then have to get their kit off in lakeside shopping centre.

I dunno- a young pretty girl, with a super voice and her life ahead of her gets told she hasn't won a game show and this kills her soul?

Do we really believe she is such a fragile person?

SuePurblybilt I think the difference is this. People who go on BB are looking soley to be in the media spotlight essentially famous for being famous and hopefully make a few bob in the process, same with the celeb version.
Jeremy Kyle people want to air their dirty laundry although I do think that programme raises questions too. Come dine with me etc, people are doing it to be on the tele, get seen, stepping stone to other things.

Xfactor involves peole with real dreams and hopes, plausible dreams and hopes, people who before coming on the programme may have worked hard to get a break. And some of them do have real talent, great voices. Not all are wannabes.

Ha ha at Princess sneering at my intellect. One of us can use capital letters correctly so you might want to aim your sneering elsewhere, mate.

Life is really tough & there are some ghastly lessons you have to learn along the way. If you choose to do that on national tv, then you take what goes with it.

I took part in a talent show at school. No one forced me, I choose to do it. I was unspeakably awful. Even now some 25 years on I still cringe at the memory. I sucked so badly. However, I learnt two things. 1. I was not cut out for a career on the stage & 2. you can survive humiliation. I was teased for about a week aftewards by friends & enemies - but I lived to tell the tale. People who go on X-factor are choosing to go through that learning experience publically. They want to be pop-stars. Even the biggest names in pop are not to everyone's taste & will come in for criticism. No one is ever 100% popular!!!! I just don't get all this bullying, morally abhorrent stuff. It is life - just on the tv.

chose - I do know there are two different spellings!

Personally I find the Teletubbies the worst voyeuristic blood sucking taunters of the disaffected. How can they justify making people dress up in those fluffy costumes to be ridiculed day in day out?

Those poor, poor, soul-murdered people....

Or Trinny and Tranny Getorf- remember those fat-grabbing evil wans with their horrible Mirror Room and shouting.

I watch most of the crappy reality things though, except Big Brother, and I have noticed that most people appear unaware of how TV works or are a bit thick about how they are likely to be portrayed. I love Wife Swap and I wouldn't imagine most of the women on the programme have MH problems, any more than any other group of women. But they are always surprised when sent to a family with wildly differing values, despite there being a million previous series to give them a clue how the programme is likely to work. I'm not at all sure what that proves though , other than a lack of reality about how own talents or how you come across is not reserved for people with disabilities.

I know the XF lot have a dream and XF pisses all over them. I maintain that the entertainment industry would do that for them anyway, XF just does it with contrived drama and Dermot gurning from the wings. But a lot of them are in it for the fame - so many contestants year after year have come back or dragged themselves round every show going -Shipwrecked, Snog, Marry Avoid - or put videos all over the internet for public comment. Do we ignore them because we (in our expert views) have decided they are not competent to have made those choices?