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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this silly patronising man needs to take long hard look at himself...

87 replies

MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 09:13

and his policies before telling the rest of the country what to do:
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/05/david-cameron-households-debts-speech
Of course households need to pay off their debts, nobody wants to be saddled with debts. It shows weak leadership IMO to now try and turn the blame of economic problems onto ordinary households, because months of blaming Labour is wearing a bit thin.

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MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 11:21

I meant to say publicised, sorry!

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garlicScaresVampires · 05/10/2011 11:36

Well, the 'econimic miracle' of the 80s was largely achieved by encouraging us all to get into more debt. Individuals were sold homes that belonged to all of us - transferring ownership from the people to the banks, who then gained extra income from the mortgages.

Interest rates on borrowing were actually lower than savings interest, so everybody took out loads of credit and that spending kept the economy going round. We also used this cheap credit to fund purchases of shares in utility companies, which we owned, and they too went into the hands of banks and multinationals.

It was a good trick. It was always going to lead to house price inflation and a country full of people who own less than they owe - a bankrupt nation. The one thing that could have been altered was the concentration of ownership in so few hands, which also means the many are in debt to the few. Cameron's administration didn't cause this - but his party's values did, and nobody's done much to alter its course.

I'm at a loss to know where things are going now, though. In the past, stagnant economies have managed to kick-start themselves through borrowing. There's nothing left to borrow now, though, is there? If we all stop spending, there'll be no demand for anything (except credit, hah) so there'll be no jobs and no economy. He's a twit to even suggest this is a way forward.

SauvignonBlanche · 05/10/2011 11:41

Thanks Cogito but I formed my opinion after reading my well known Tory-hating daily Telegraph this morning.

HecateGoddessOfTheNight · 05/10/2011 11:47

and I'm sorry about the snotty 'for your information' bit, sunshine. Blush

SauvignonBlanche · 05/10/2011 11:53

Understandable, in the circumstances Hectate.

azazello · 05/10/2011 11:56

What is galling me about this speech is that it is the precise opposite of the general economic advice that people need to get out and spend. If shops and services have no customers or takers because people are paying off their personal debts, it will push more businesses into administration (probably with outstanding loans which failed to keep them afloat), more people onto JSA etc.

e.g. I know it is the guardian but this comment struck me: 'Housing equity withdrawal has been used significantly to support consumer spending in recent years. Consequently, the ongoing ? and increased ? net injection of housing equity is adding to the constraints on consumer spending including high unemployment, negative real wage growth and high debt levels," he said.'

and this

I don't think the position is quite as clear cut as he seems to be saying.

Abra1d · 05/10/2011 11:57

I think people do or did borrow money for silly things. You only have to read the threads here about hen 'weeks' or very expensive handbags. Not everyone on MN can be earning THAT amount of money (though I accept that there are lots who are). Some of these Mulberries, beauty treatments and weeks in the Med. can only have been financed by credit cards. And now the bills have come in.

But the banks were morally culpable, I believe, for allowing us to borrow so much money. I look at my credit limits and just gasp. I could never afford to pay that much back.

Witchofthenorth · 05/10/2011 12:11

if only the poverty stricken could apply to be MPs, that would be ridiculous

Would it? I have been relatively comfortable financially in my life (before children) and I also have been ridiculously skint. I have had weeks and months of not knowing where I am going to find money to feed the kids, of cutting back everything apart from my mortgage payments, gas and electric and still not knowing how we will eat for the week, but somehow we get through. Perhaps a person who has experience of having no money would be better at steering us through this mess......at least they would know how to budget :o

Just sayin'........

CogitoErgoSometimes · 05/10/2011 12:14

The advice from all quarters for a long time has been that if you want to ride out the current recession, you will be in better shape if you pay down debts costing 10%, 15%, 20% APR before you start saving in accounts offering you 2% or 3%. Martyn Lewis's www.Moneysavingexpert.com site has pages on the subject. Remortgaging properties to release equity was quite a popular way to raise money in the past because the gamble was that the extra mortgage payments were still affordable and that, if all else failed, the price of the property would go up. That's changed.

So if the PM is making a mistake, it's that he's a bit behind what's already happening. But I really don't accept that a message to be more cautious about personal debt is the same as saying 'stop spending'.

MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 12:15

I agree with the points you both raise, garlic and azazello, the ill considered and contradictory nature of his speech certainly riles me for these reasons too. I think the whole underpinning and philosophy of the "new" conservative government is very precariously based and I cannot see how they can move themselves forward and make positive change.

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MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 12:36

For you, Cogito:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045364/David-Cameron-Every-household-pay-credit-card-store-debts.html

I particularly like the photograph included of the tory MP pretending to shoot at the crowd of protesting public sector workers. Just demonstrates how articulate and in touch they really are...

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CogitoErgoSometimes · 05/10/2011 12:38

As long as they don't start punching them, a la the incredibly articulate and in-touch John Prescott, eh? :)

LunaticFringe · 05/10/2011 12:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 05/10/2011 12:44

He's not saying that the general public caused the debt-crisis, that's the Guardian spin. The full speech is talking about more general fiscal responsibility... starting with personal finances, extending to banks and especially governments. Given that the Eurozone leaders will be listening to this speech, the part about governments will hopefully hit home, because a big threat to UK growth is all the faffing about in Europe, putting off doing something about the problems there.

Riveninabingle · 05/10/2011 12:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 12:52

Cogito, he is saying, as usual, "that we are all in it together". It's a cop out, basically.

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SauvignonBlanche · 05/10/2011 12:56

"We're all in it together" - Bollocks! Angry

sunshineandbooks · 05/10/2011 12:56

No worries hecate and I'm sorry you had to go through what you did. It must have been awful. Sad All credit to you for clawing your way back. I admire that sort of tenacity enormously. Smile

sunshineandbooks · 05/10/2011 12:59

I definitely think the current incumbents are completely out of touch.

It's not necessarily because of their own personal wealth, though. Like someone earlier said, quite often those with significant inherited wealth feel a moral obligation to do good with it and think long and hard about what life must be like for those less fortunate. We don't demand that psychologists experience the same problems as their clients before being allowed to practice, and the same shouldn't apply to government necessarily.

It's just that Cameron, Osborne and several others are completely lacking in empathy.

OTheHugeWerewolef · 05/10/2011 13:03

YABU. I don't give a toss whether Cameron can 'connect' with my situation. I want a politician who leads the country and makes sensible decisions overall, not one who sits there emoting emptily and pretending to hold my hand.

He's right that the nation should be reining in personal debt. So what if he doesn't have any himself?

EllaDee · 05/10/2011 13:11

But he isn't following through, so far as I can see, with any ways to help people rein in personal debt. It is more expensive than ever to buy a house, to go to university, etc. More and more professions are being made hard to get into unless you are already rich and can afford to work or study for nothing/a pittance. I would believe the 'rein in personal debt' argument if I thought he meant people who spend on crap. But he doesn't. He just wants to point the finger at jumped-up non-rich people who dare to want decent jobs and homes. IMHO.

MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady · 05/10/2011 13:12

OTheHugeWerewolef, if you can show me examples of DC "leading the country and making sensible decisions", I may be able to forgive his lack of empathy and disconnected nature. I think it will be hard to find any examples of his strong leadership skills and sensible decision making process, and I would argue that having a little empathy in the process would be a positive contributor.
Judging by what I've heard on the lunchtime news he will be changing his speech anyway. This part of the speech was apparently leaked and having picked up on the criticism in the media they would be daft to continue with it unchanged.

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OTheHugeWerewolef · 05/10/2011 13:13

The actual quote is "The only way out of a debt crisis is to deal with your debts. That means households ? all of us ? paying off the credit card and store card bills."

He's not saying 'pay off your mortgage and student loan' there, he's saying 'paying off the credit card and store card bills'. That does seem to me to suggest he's talking about people spending on consumer goods.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 05/10/2011 13:17

I find myself increasingly wondering whether anyone in government has ever read a basic economic textbook...

Since the economy is circling the drain, it's madness to encourage people to pay down their debts rather than spending. Obviously, it's what they should actually be doing, but officially encouraging it is just... it's just madness!

garlicScaresVampires · 05/10/2011 13:22

Paying off the credit card and store card bills means "Pay more money to the banks, faster".

If the banks had shown some willingness to come good on their promises of supporting small businesses, etc, it might possibly make sense. As it is, though, he's telling those small businesses to give more money to the banks (thus reducing their spending on supplies and staff), which will make more people even poorer but he still wants us all to feed the banks!

It reminds me of a sci-fi novel I read once, where the bank took over the world.

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