To expect Facebook to enforce it's own rules?

[CHC74]

Facebook has an age limit. It's 13. In theory, nobody under the age of 13 should be able to have an account, and yet there are millions of primary school kids using the website, being exposed to pages promoting hate speech, illegal activities, anorexia as a glamorous lifestyle etc etc etc as well as the risk of coming into contact with predators.

Parents try and stop their kids from signing up, but they use friends computers, mobile phones and other 'net connected devices to go against their parents wishes.

Is it unreasonable to expect Facebook to put in place some measure of age verification to ensure that under 13's don't get to use their site? Should they be forced to do so?

@HulaBaby - Perhaps when schools start taking internet safety seriously and stop pigeonholing it as an ICT problem we'll see better education and less incidents of cyberbullying and predation.

I don't know you, or anything about your experience or competence when teaching kids about online safety, but the ICT lessons I've seen on the subject have relied upon underinformed teachers relying upon out of date resources.

I'm sorry but you dont think that's there's more chance of them getting raped and murdered through someone they come across in RL?!
It's the parents responsibility. Age limits make no difference in whether a child is mature enough to deal with the content that they could come across online

Ok. Perhaps I'm wrong. It's all down to the parents and facebook has no responsibility.

It'll be a different story if it's ever the child of a MNetter that signs up to FB behind her parents back, meets up with a 42 year old welder from Bolton who she believed to be a 10 year old and something really bad happens.

Then it'll be "We need a MN campaign". I hope I never have to come back and say "I told you so...."

I may get lashed for this but if my DD signs up to Facebook at 12 and meets a 42 yr old welder and something awful happens I certainly wouldn't blame Facebook. It'd be my fault for not monitoring what she's been doing online/letting her out alone etc and the welders fault. I would think a campaign for parents to get more involved would get you further than targeting the entire Internet

Also if you would seriously say 'I told you so' if the worst happened to someone's child then you are vile.

@pyjamasinbananas - It's a figure of speech. Relax. Attack the argument, not the person.

And perhaps when (many) parents start taking Internet safety seriously and stop pigeonholing it as a problem with website registration or something only schools should be teaching we'll see better education and more responsibility from parents and fewer incidents of cyber-bullying and predation.

Regarding your Daily Mail-esque scenario, if my 10yo DD signed up to FB behind my back, managed to use it enough to build up a relationship with an adult without my knowledge, failed to understand the risks because I didn't explain them well enough, and then something bad happened I personally guarantee you that I wouldn't be blaming Facebook any more than I'd be blaming my ISP or the manufacturer of the PC she used. I'd be blaming a) me and b) the welder.

"I would think a campaign for parents to get more involved would get you further than targeting the entire Internet"

For a lot of kids, Facebook IS the entire Internet. They play games, watch videos, listen to music, communicate with friends and do everything that they could only do by having wider access to multiple sites previously. It's Youtube/Spotify/Email/IRC all rolled into one and on many kids computers, it's the only website they ever use.

Yes, I'm working with parents to improve their understanding of the technology, to help them become part of their child's online life and help them to take responsibility for keeping their kids safe.

Yes, I'm working with kids to help them improve their own online safety and develop a "digital awareness" so they know what is and isn't safe and acceptable behaviour in the online space.

And Yes, I'm trying to get Facebook to recognise it's own role in the "online safety problem".

Is that so wrong?

Long time since I did internet safety in secondary schools but I can tell you that all my resources were totally up to date, followed all national guidelines and were thorough and monitored. As a qualified and experienced teacher with a good record I ensured my pupils knew what was and wasn't acceptable on the internet and how to keep themsleves safe. Things like Fb weren't around at the time and cyber bullying far less of an issue but still covered in its infancies stages.

I now work in an infant school and I have my own 9y DD. I include internet safety whenever i use the internet with any child. And yes, cycberbullying is included.

Whilst your experience is of schools not taking this kind of thing lightly, my experience has been different.

And the bottom line still comes down to parents needing to take a far greater responsibility.

CHC74 - what is your role and in what capabity do you work with parents on this matter?

I notice you have another very similar thread on a linked topic too.

Hulababy - How is Internet Safety taught in your infant school?

Hulababy - The other thread was simply a piece I picked up on Twitter which I thought may be of interest.

My role in this discussion is one of a concerned parent. Professionally, I would rather keep my role private as it would identify me personally.

njtoday.net/2011/09/28/authorities-file-new-charges-against-suspected-online-child-predator/

This bastard has (allegedly) assaulted two 14 year old girls that he befriended on facebook whilst posing as a 17 year old. One of these girls refused to meet him, but by analysing her facebook feed he was able to anticipate where she would be and pressure her to get in his car.

Police are trying to establish if there are any more victims.

Has he already targetted 10 year olds? 12 year olds?

Would anyone like to get in touch with the parents of his victims and tell them that it's their fault for not monitoring their child's Internet activity more closely? Or that by not being more careful, blame attaches to the child?

Facebook article - read it and weep:

Link

Interesting article here on the subject:

www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10756082

Summary: "Some kids will have two or even three [facebook accounts]," says Dr Barbie Clarke, of the youth research agency Family Kids and Youth, which conducted the research after monitoring online trends among a sample of schoolchildren in the UK.

Sorry - Clickable link:

www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10756082

So you also want to penalise those with free email too? So myself, a fully grown adult would be restricted because I use free email?

And how about those who have multiple ISP emails? On my ISP I can have up to 6 individual email addresses, that aren't linked to the main email addy. My eldest could easily have an email address with our ISP, so blocking free email addresses won't actually work.

I agree with Hula..it is up to parents. I don't agree with under 13s having fb, as that is the rule & it is a rule for a reason. US federal law prevents the collection & sharing of info for under 13s. Anyone here who justifies it by saying the accounts are locked down/just for games/for family is making sure that fb is breaking federal law in the USA. How did we all manage to keep our children occupied before fb? How did we all keep in touch before fb?

And it is up to you, OP & the rest of us to report anyone under the age of 13 on fb. I have done it & will continue to do so.

CHC74

And when the charge from Facebook appears on the statement?

It will already have been spent, they won't be able to get the money back. You also have to be careful, because by giving fb the cc details, you could also, unwittingly be giving them access to it for coins for games.

CC registration is a stupid way forward.

Perhaps when schools start taking internet safety seriously and stop pigeonholing it as an ICT problem we'll see better education and less incidents of cyberbullying and predation

As I see it, my daughter's school has enough to teach her without the intricate ins & outs of the internet. I am quite able to keep my daughter safe by monitoring her on the internet & making sure she is & continues to be well equipped at keeping herself safe under my guidance. She will know, age appropriately, what is & isn't acceptable.

CHC74

The blame does lie at the parent's door. They believed their daughters were safe. They should have made sure they were safe. For some, facebook is all about numbers, how many people you have as your friends, doesn't matter who these people are, as long as you have the most friends amoung your friends.

It is not new news that there are undesirables on facebook. They have been on the internet for as long as the internet has been what it is. Chatrooms, dating sites, forums, bebo, myspace, they are there. And because they are there, children need to be watched/monitored/look after while on the internet! Teenagers need to be taught how to look after themselves, not left alone in front of a computer screen for hrs on end doing God only knows what!

I don't see how you can blame fb for what happened to these children. They have safety settings in place, more so for teens actually. And they didn't make/let/allow these girls to add strangers to their page. Only their parents allowed that. As tragic as it is, only their parents (and the perpetrator) allowed the outcome that was, no matter how you try to dress it up. It would be easy to blame fb, but it would also be wrong.

"Would anyone like to get in touch with the parents of his victims and tell them that it's their fault for not monitoring their child's Internet activity more closely?"

No, because you'd have to be some special kind of sociopath to actually do that. Just like you'd have to be a total nut-job to say to a parent of a 5yo child that's just been run over that it's their fault for not holding on to their child's hand.

But just because you wouldn't blame someone to their face for their actions (or lack thereof) it doesn't mean that their responsibility in the matter vanishes.

"They have safety settings in place, more so for teens actually."

And yet when a child signs up for Facebook, their profile is by default searchable by everyone and everyone can send them friend requests.

When that same child signs up for Facebook they are not directed to the pages on safety and security, or prompted to choose their own privacy settings at all.

Facebook assumes that the child will know how to set their privacy settings and that they will know the reasons for doing so.

Why not direct ALL new members to a page that explains how Facebook will use their data, who may have access to it and how to restrict that access BEFORE they are prompted to add friends to their list?

Every parent who says that they monitor their child's every move on the Internet is frankly naive. Kids will always do stuff behind their parent's back.

I know I did, and you probably did too. Does that make our parents inadequate?

I do not believe that Facebook is the root of all evil, there's much worse out there.
It would be good though if children were unable to join as it would prevent the peer pressure experienced by the children of sensible parents but I do not think it is FB's responsibility to prevent this.

If my DD was on Facebook aged 11 or 12 and was "indiscriminately adding "friends" that they don't know from Adam" then I would consider I had failed in communicating one of the most important rules of internet safety - that we don't 'friend' people we don't know in RL. This is a real cornerstone for us with the children's sites DD is on like Moshi Monsters and a lesson it's really important to teach early. Social network websites are going to be a constant, big part of our DCs lives, you can't turn that off, so they need to learn how to use them safely right from the start.