To wonder why we are happy to define middle class but not working class?

[Argos]

This is continued from another thread but I felt it deserved it's own because it is something I would like to get views on! There was a thread on MN earlier this week along teh lines of what makes someone middle class and posters wrote long lists of their ideas on this.

Why when people define working class in the same way do they recieve lots of 's and patrionising comments?

I am not class obsessed, I just want to know why this is.

I am working class, came from a reasonably wealthy (through hard work and sensible spending, wise investing) family, who were most definately working class. (Dad was a decorator, but he definately had aspirations for upper class as he was also a dance teacher, played the piano, loved classical music, read the Telegraph, and never set foot in a pub), and my mum worked in the cotton mills.

I have had a good career, have qualifications, etc, but I still would say I am working class. Married to a bloke who is also working class, and comes from a working class family too.

We is just common.

catgirl1976

I sort of agree with your comment but it's usually fairly easy to tell who has class and to which class someone belongs.

Quite often the two are actually the same.

I don't think that's true at all, Pendeen - but I see such varying interpretations of 'having class' that I'm never sure what any individual means by it. For some people it appears to mean 'behaving well' in various ways, for some people it appears to mean something along the lines of 'visibly not a chav' or 'not pillaging the breakfast buffet', or even (usully said of women) 'doesn't wear too much fake tan or expose her entire breasts'!

By getorf: "I think saving V spending is a (very sweeping) class indicator.

Middle classes save for something substantial, like a pension fund, or an ISA, which will go towards school fees or something.

Working classes save and then have a fucking good Christmas..."

Absolute best definition of class system ever!

Can anyone define underclass then, or is it a taboo subject? Once again people are only too happy to give their definition of middle class but never to give their definition of any other percieved class

Wikipedia has this on 'underclass':

The term underclass is a coinage which functions as a morally neutral equivalent for what was known in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as the "undeserving poor". The earliest significant exponent of the term was the American sociologist and anthropologist Oscar Lewis in 1961. The underclass, according to Lewis, has "a strong present-time orientation, with little ability to delay gratification and plan for the future" (p. xxvi). Many other terms have been used to "describe a section of society which is seen to exist within and yet at the base of the working class."

Class has been and remains an issue in British society. It's not as simple as upper class, middle class and working class. There are all sorts of subdivisions, such as upper middle class and lower middle class ? those who have a drawing room and lavatory and those who have a lounge and toilet. It has very little, if anything to do with money. Other countries, even the USA, have class structures too but nothing so esoteric and difficult to understand as ours. For the record, most aristocrats and aspiring upper classes regard the royal family as middle class. Work that one out.

Term 'working class' was derived in nineteenth century to describe families where mothers went to work - so actually vast majority. (See other thread for heated discussion WOHMs/SAHMs...)
Of course things have changed hugely since then, (class-obsessed) England is much more diverse, and 'working class' now appears to be a rather twee aesthetic fantasy held by Guy Ritchie, lad-mags, etc.

Very few middle class people cheerfully describe themselves as middle class -unless it's to take the piss out of themselves. I think that by 'defining' middle-class, people are trying to put themselves outside that group - or to show that they're not poncy and censorious (or possessed of whatever else are supposed to be shameful middle class traits).

Too ahrd to define 'working class' now - not enough flatcapped matrons scrubbing owt doorstep wi'whippets, or whatever, so just a way of referring to those not very well off. And people don't generally want to do this, unless handwringing aout deprivation, or whatever...

underclass are those without the means to work for whatever reason supported by the state

imo

IMO there's also the underclass. I think it's hard to define what class you are in.

Oops. Just saw the post above.
Did anyone watch the comedy proms? The puppets (dogs) from a BBC3 prod did a good song about being middle class (just as an aside)
'm not too bothered how people see me class wise to be honest.

I hope to god it's not only to do with money. I'm most certainly middle-class but I don't have a pot to piss in at the moment. I always thought it was my healthy disdain for the working class which defined my status.

distain is absolutely essential imo

phew.
I'm safe so.

wordfactory.....good for you. I had a horse but a French visitor ate it while I was having a long sleep in.

I'm working class and I think you know if you are (if you're not sure then you aren't). I've scaled the class heights, one way and another, which has perhaps given me a birds-eye view of the class system. It's alive and well, albeit less distinct than it used to be. imho.

I'm working class not necessarily because my dad was a bus driver and my mum worked in a factory but because we were culturally working class. re behaviours, belief-system, values. My kids went to public school and are at good unis, they are definitely MC. But they were brought up by a WC mother, and some of my WC values have inevitably rubbed off.

For the record, we always have a stunning, stupidly expensive christmas - though my parents never did (and which may be a post-divorce thing, estranged parents competing). I also left v posh ex and he was affronted that the urchin he found in the gutter had the temerity to ditch him and his money. He viewed our marriage as a moment of youthful madness on his part. I'm also crap at the longer view and find it very hard to plan - but that could be personality and not class at all.

I have found to my cost that you never escape the WC tag if someone posh UMC finds out. They can never forget it, always mention it - one woman cna't help mentioning it every time i see her (rarely now!) - and forever view you through astonished, embarrassed eyes: they almost literally take a step back and don't know what to do with you, apart from the obligatory 'my goodness, you've done well'. I once mentioned the born-on-a-council-estate* , in passing, at a very posh party and the entire room went quiet. Some of them literally cringed with embarrassment. MInd the gap!

• never again - not because I'm embarrassed (not proud either - it's just a fact of which I am neither embarrassed nor proud) - but because the huge wave of.. what??? it sets off just isn't worth the aggro. And now I find I'm bi. bi-class that is - not quite one or the other, viewed with suspicion by both? I also realise I haven't answered the q (OP) but that is just so hard to define. I'll have a think..

Karen Matthews - mother of Shannon - perfect example of underclass.

Low IQ, multiple children by multiple partners, life-long dependency on benefits, on the files of social services, poor health, poor diet - low life expectancy and addiction issues in family

Springydaffs, your post resonated strongly with me, though my partner is from the same bit of the working-class as me, so no 'marrying up'. But I hear you on the 'you've done well' condescension, and being regarded as some kind of exotic import because you grew up without an indoor loo! I once mentioned to someone at a garden party that I used to be ride horses as a child, and they were completely taken aback - all the more so when I explained (feeling slightly annoyed at the Codfish Gape of Surprise at the idea of a working-class Irish kid in the Pony Club) that I grew up around a lot of travellers with horses, and got good at riding bareback on only half-broken ponies.

I agree the class system is still alive and kicking, even if it is less distinct and schematic than in the past.

CogitoErgoSometimes i think that's the issue working class have steadily thanks to labour the un working class

we now have
the underclass that consists of those who feel its their right to have as many children they like regardless of that fact they have never worked and never will

the working class who are low paid but work cheek buy jowl with the work shy and are sick of being lumped in with theses people

the working class who are getting very tired of having to foot the bill for the feckless, but are called bigots if they dare suggest the underclass should pay their way.

and the upperclass who have so much money they just don't give a shit

i would say we are upper working class if their is such a thing we don't own our own home but my oh has two degrees and a masters we earn over 35k combined my dd has a tutor and goes to a excellent school we shop in marks

I think it's probably more to do with education than anything else, with a huge amount of overlap with how you choose to express yourself (speech/possessions/activities you enjoy/home).

Education can be formal, or on the job. I don't think a degree is a defining feature of a middle-class person. I'd say self-education for its own sake doesn't count.

In my family we have a spread of classes, despite all being from the same stock. My dad is middle class: left school at 17, got himself a white-collar job, worked his way up, owns a house outright, holidays in a gite in France, reads the Independent etc.

His sister, my aunt, married a soldier at 18, had children young, manages a care home, reads misery lit, has octagonal black crockery, technicolour photos of her dogs. She has a responsible, pretty professional job which could go either way, middle or working, but the other stuff I think defines her as working class.

My mum (my parents divorced) has her own home thanks to marrying well, as she has never been educated properly or done any job for longer than a few months. I think she is working class (despite not really working) but she thinks she is middle.

Her brother has a cafe/restaurant so is self-employed. He proudly tells people he never reads books, comfortably uses only the local dialect no matter whom he's talking to, and his hobby is going out with the local gamekeepers to shoot. Again it could go either way but the no books/dialect thing clinches it.

I sound like a terrible, terrible snob but I've only put this down because of this thread - they're all people, they're all great, I don't care, but those are my thoughts and a few examples.