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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that rights/wrongs aside, a council needing to make £300m cuts should focus it's funds somewhere other than evicting gypsies?

744 replies

Blubell · 19/09/2011 12:32

I know there are massive fors and againsts in the Dale Farm evictions, and I don't want to start a big travellers debate, but in this time of austerity measures, and the fact that Essex council needs to cut £300m in 3 years, is evicting the site now, when it's a case that has been going on for 10 years really the best way to spend the little cash they have? Its been reported it's going to cost the council £18m to return the site - which used to be a scrapyard so hardly a place of outstanding beauty - back to greenbelt, how many carers, libraries etc will be lost to fund that? Just a thought.......

OP posts:
Appuskidu · 03/10/2011 16:09

All of it aliceliddell.

Same here. It's been ridiculous that it's gone on this long and they seem to be laughing at the council all the way. The travellers have been taking this thing to court again and again to try to get the law on their side; I just hope that now they will have the good sense to obey the law when it's passed in the council's favour...!

I really dislike their attitude that they are being made homeless. Had they bothered to check if they were allowed to build on the land before they did so, they would have realised that they couldn't. Had they just not moved in then, they wouldn't have been 'made homeless'. They have made their own illegal choices.

alemci · 03/10/2011 16:33

In an ideal world the travellers would be able to stay together. Think about history and how people had to give up living on farms and go and work in filthy cities and factories because of industrialisation. Sometimes things have to change. We are a small island with limited resources. Sometimes people have to move forward otherwise we would all be in the stone age clinging on to our heritage and culture. Things cannot always stay the same.

I know that in one area of the countryside farmers are being made to give up their farms even though they don't want to so that more housing can be built

Appuskidu · 03/10/2011 16:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 17:16

Alice, I don't think you can draw a parallel between the struggle for equal pay and legislation for planning applications, that is laughable.

lassylass · 03/10/2011 17:39

Now you're not even trying aliceliddell.

When the 'racist' smokescreen is removed, there really isnt much argument in favour of the Dale Farm travellers or how they have conducted themselves.

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 19:44

Alemci -- If things change and change is inevitable, why not accept that the concept of greenbelt is ridiculous, that it should be built over, and people who need sites for their trailers should be allowed pp to stay there? Unless you think provision of sites for Travellers doesn't fit into your definition of change as progress from some sort of barbarous past.

Andrewofgg -- 'You don't answer the question: must the council provide more of the same if the numbers expand?' Yes; the Traveller population is growing at a far faster rate than the general population. More, not fewer sites will be needed in the future to accommodate them.

'Nor the question: should the travellers accept the outcome of the legal proceedings they have issued?' If it is the final word, then yes, but if not the final word then they can keep on going until the final word is issued.

And then the whole circus can then begin again in someone else's backyard, right?
It will keep on going round and round until someone, somewhere decides that reason should prevail, and that enough sites should be provided, even if that means bulldozing greenbelt/reclaimed industrial land.

How is it right to deny 90% of planning applications from one particular group, Notacitychick and Lassylass, et al?

As for 'wasting so many millions of taxpayer money on a gamble that was only ever going to go one way. They are not above the law.' They are not so stupid that they would gamble on an issue that was only going to go one way. The majority of Traveller planning permission applications are granted on appeal, that is, after the initial application has been turned down but often after a protracted appeals process. That's how the law has worked so far for them. Apparently your view of what the law consists of is contradicted by their direct experience.

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 19:48

There is no 'racist smokescreen' either.

You need look no further than this thread to find racism blatantly posted:
'I see no reason why the UK should change laws for and bend over backwards to accommodate a group of people who appear to offer little but carnage, litter and a flagrant disregard for the locals' way of life.'

LadyBeagleEyes · 03/10/2011 19:59

I bow to mathanxiety, the only non racist, reasonable patronising person ever on mumsnet. Hmm.

onagar · 03/10/2011 20:02

"How is it right to deny 90% of planning applications from one particular group"

Well I'm about to put in a request for planning permission for a 900ft Ferris wheel on my balcony and I'm pretty sure they will reject it because of my skin color.

Then I'm going to request planning permission for a slaughterhouse in my window box. I'm pretty certain they will turn that one down as my great-grandfather was Welsh. Bloody council hates me.

That will make a 100% rejection rate and make me worse off than the travellers - teachers pets!!

Andrewofgg · 03/10/2011 20:11

math if the number of travellers increase why should not the newly maturing travellers buy land where they can lawfully move in instead of waiting for the local authorities to provide them?

How I wish I believed the DF people intended to accept the decision of the courts when the appeals procedure is exhausted. In this case that could happen next week. Will they pack up and go if it does?

Many travellers' planning appeals are indeed allowed, and that is in accordance with the law, but the greenbelt aspect made DF hopeless.

I would like to suggest this: that the "traveller community" is a sub-set of the British community; and that planning law, the notion that you cannot build what you like even on your own land, is by now part of the culture of that community; to which therefore those members of it who are also part of the traveller sub-set can rightly be expected to conform.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:15

Actually, mathanxiety, that 90% figure everyone quotes can be debunked - as someone said aeons ago on this very thread, it's statistics 101. You're not comparing like with like - the 90% figures includes extensions/garages etc on a person's own property which are much more likely to get pp seeing as the land it is on is already designated residential.

If you compared figures for pp applications purely on greenbelt land, it would look very different.

As I said, I care about greenbelt land - I don't think Tesco, travellers or the guy from the council should be allowed to build there. Math, did you listen to the Moral Maze? It would have really opened your eyes, I think. Your arguments are very idealistic if that makes sense.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:21

I'd just like to re-iterate that in my area there are many illegal sites which are not being evicted, so it is simply not the case that councils only enforce planning legislation in the case of travellers.

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 20:22

And yet, Notacitychick, the 'legal' part of the Dale Farm settlement is built on greenbelt....

Dipsyistipsy · 03/10/2011 20:24

And so is Len Grindley,s house and it was built without pp,pot and kettle springs to mind

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 20:24

And yet, Notacitychick (and Andrewofgg too), the 'legal' part of the Dale Farm settlement is built on greenbelt....

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:40

Math, the 'legal' part of that sentence being the relevant point imo...
there is some building on greenbelt land of course - but it is rightly tightly controlled.

When the development is illegal then the council either grants pp retrospectively, or it denies it. In the illegal portion of Dale Farm, it is the latter. They have no pp, so they will be evicted.

Just because my next door neighbour gets pp for an extension doesn't mean I will.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:41

Dipsey, did Len's house gain retrospective pp?

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 20:41

I don't see my arguments as one bit idealistic tbh. They are much more pragmatic than the arguments of those who think they should just follow 'the law' (whatever they feel that means) and leave Dale Farm.

The reality is that the Travellers are thick on the ground already and expanding in numbers. They are a recognised ethnic minority. They have a lifestyle whose traditions include nomadism among other clear distinguishing elements. They need sites to park their trailers or chalets. They do not fare well in houses and neighbours do not welcome them when they are moved in.

Evidence/best practice studies have shown in LAs where sites have been provided that this is the best way to ensure a modicum of two way respect between Travellers and the local community, and more to the point, it has been shown that this costs far less in the long run than making them buy their own land and then trying to evict them if they set up unauthorised camps on it. It is also far easier to reach the women and children with any needed health or social services or educational support when they are peacefully settled in authorised settlements and they don't have their backs up against the authorities.

The reality is that the Dale Farm Travellers are going to end up somewhere else as sure as the sun will come up next June. If they try settling in the East or Southwest, where LAs have not provided enough sites, there will be another 'Dale Farm' again in a few years. If they move to any other regions they will seriously stretch the facilities available for Travellers there.

mathanxiety · 03/10/2011 20:44

But there is nothing sacrosanct about greenbelt land, is there?

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 03/10/2011 20:44

Math - I really hope they go live on your doorstep . . . . .

lassylass · 03/10/2011 20:44

"There is no 'racist smokescreen' either."

The courts have been the judge of that. The Dale Farm settlement is illegal and will be removed. 'Ethnic cleansing' and dubious human rights arguments have been thrown out as the diversion that they are.

There are plenty of buildings on greenbelt land. It doesnt give the Travellers the right to create more without permission.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:52

Of course there is something sacrosanct about greenbelt land! That's why it's called greenbelt!

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:52

There is very limited development - yes there is some development but it has to have a certain justification.

Notacitychick · 03/10/2011 20:57

You see, Math, it is an idealistic argument you have there, because it has no grounds in current law. It is how you are arguing things should be. Your opinion is that it would be more pragmatic to build sites for travellers, and I would be in some agreement with you there. But the fact that councils have not built sites is not a reason for travellers to just go ahead and build on greenbelt land with impunity.

Did Len get retrospective planning permission granted?

alemci · 03/10/2011 21:31

maths I don't mind them having sites but could they buy land that is non greenbelt like everyone else has to where it is legal to build. I don't agree with the dismantling of the greenbelt. Do you want England to be a concrete jungle or do you still live in Ireland.

No one ever responded to my comment about returning to Ireland and living there. Isn't there more land which is cheap?