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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that rights/wrongs aside, a council needing to make £300m cuts should focus it's funds somewhere other than evicting gypsies?

744 replies

Blubell · 19/09/2011 12:32

I know there are massive fors and againsts in the Dale Farm evictions, and I don't want to start a big travellers debate, but in this time of austerity measures, and the fact that Essex council needs to cut £300m in 3 years, is evicting the site now, when it's a case that has been going on for 10 years really the best way to spend the little cash they have? Its been reported it's going to cost the council £18m to return the site - which used to be a scrapyard so hardly a place of outstanding beauty - back to greenbelt, how many carers, libraries etc will be lost to fund that? Just a thought.......

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ScarahStratton · 26/09/2011 20:29

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggghhhh.

mankyminks · 26/09/2011 20:46

Trying not to feel frustrated by yet another delay..... Surely the Judge is only trying to dot absolutely ALL the i's and cross ALL the T's for both sides so once he gives the go-ahead for the removal off all illegally placed buildings,caravans etc.there will be no going back and no more excuses for hold ups.......

aliceliddell · 26/09/2011 20:59

or maybe he's applying the law correctly? just thinking, with him being a judge....

LadyBeagleEyes · 26/09/2011 21:40

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Message deleted by Mumsnet.

mankyminks · 26/09/2011 22:14

Let's hope so Alice.The illegality of the site stands as it is as far as I'm aware,so removal from anything put up in any shape or form is just a matter of time. Delay is being caused by Judge wanting to make sure every bolt,nut,screw,plank of wood to be removed is on paper so NONE of the parties will have any come back afterwards followed by lengthy,expensive court cases in case the wrong plank of wood is or isn't removed.
Can't blame him if those are the reasons behind his decision,can't think of any other reasons,you?

bubbles4 · 26/09/2011 22:29

mankyminks,I wouldnt be so sure,there are three judicial reviews to be heard this week.

mathanxiety · 26/09/2011 23:50

Just for you, LadyBeagle:
'A website called Jewify.org even replaces the word "Gypsy" in negative news stories, with the word "Jew", illustrating how the headlines inspired by the issue would then turn into headlines such as "Anger at Jewish invasion...

..Liberal Judaism's Rabbi Janet Burden, who visited the site as a member of a Jewish solidarity group, said: "The travellers are vilified just as Jews were in this country in the early part of the 20th century. The language used clearly echoes the rhetoric of antisemitism."

"This is a difficult case, with raised passions on all sides, but our concern as Jews is the tendency for members of the Traveller community to be stereotyped and stigmatised. As we have learned from our shared experiences as victims of Nazi tyranny, demonising a minority in this way is never acceptable," Jon Benjamin, chief executive of the Board of Deputies, also said.'

lesley33 · 27/09/2011 00:38

You know math, your tendency not to engage with what people are actually saying is frustrating. Especially as most people posting are not posting racist stuff about Travellers. I know Travellers are widely discriminated against and I am sure that on lots of other internet forums, a thread like this would be full of racist comments. But honestly, the majority of posts on this thread are not racist.

For example, your post on human rights. I agree that human rights are about safeguarding the most vulnerable people in our communities, including the people the majority of people wouldn't care about. Without human rights we could for example have state sponsored vigilantism against paedophiles. But if you want to persuade people you are right, you need to respond to the points they raise, debate the issue. The fact you dont is why posters are getting frustrated with you.

mathanxiety · 27/09/2011 03:26

What is there to debate about this ridiculous statement -- "Human rights are earned"?

FellatioNelson · 27/09/2011 08:29

I think what was meant there was that human rights should go hand in hand with personal responsibility. It is not right to demand that we give one, without being entitled to receive the other.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 27/09/2011 09:14

Headlines today ...

"Terrorist's appeal against deportation funded by taxpayer"

"Teacher forced to leave family by pupils' false sex claims"

"Prisoners demand more Sky Sports"

And the basis of theor arguements - human rights.

What a fucking joke this is. How anyone, not naming names, can justify this, is off their fucking head. What about the law abiding people? We have no fucking human rights. I very much hope that Greece et al default, the Euro collapses and we get out of the fucking EU. Less than 6 weeks and praying.

So for anyone defending human rights being an entitlement regardless - really? Really?

As Sarahstratton said ... aaarrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Yes, having a shit day already and not even 915!

Appuskidu · 27/09/2011 11:55

I cannot begin to imagine how frustrating this must be for Basildon Council and the local residents!

I hope the Judge is just covering their backs legally, but he's coming across as a bit of an arse.

I just wonder what will happen if the minute the eviction starts and a traveller/rent a cause hero hurls him/herself in front of a bulldozer and is injured. Will they be back to the high courts to get an injuction as they've been hurt??

Andrewofgg · 27/09/2011 11:57

cookcleanerchauferette Saying this is pissing into the wind, but human rights are nothing to do with the EU. We signed up to the Convention in 1950 before the EU even existed.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 27/09/2011 12:00

European Court of Human Rights exacerbates situations .....

Agree with the judge being a bit of an arse. Hopefully he will cross every t and dot every i so that there will be no further waste on resources .... why the other judges haven't done it is bizarre.

mankyminks · 27/09/2011 12:03

Exactly Appuskidu,I really do hope that that is what is causing the delay. As far as I'm aware the illegality of the site is not the item the Judge is dithering about. They probably want to note down every single screw,nut,bolt and piece of wood that BC is allowed to remove,just to make sure there is no come back and lengthy,costly court cases afterwards in case a piece of baling twine is accidently

Andrewofgg · 27/09/2011 12:05

math Landlords who don't get their rent and mortgagees who don't get their repayments regularly turf people out of their homes.

mankyminks · 27/09/2011 12:06

removed and BC is being sued for theft. (Sorry,posted before I had finished).He will probably also want to spell out the code of behaviour for BOTH sides,so hopefully this sort of 'accidents' will be prevented.

Notacitychick · 27/09/2011 12:09

I would like to briefly tell my experience, I've namechanged as there could be quite a few identifying details. A few years back we moved from the city to a semi-rural village - a very picturesque village in the south east (not essex). There's a disproportionate number of travellers in the local area, compared to the rest of the UK in general. Prior to moving to the village I had no ill-feeling towards travellers whatsoever - knew there were a few bad apples, but live and let live etc. In fact, when at uni, I rather fancied the new-age traveller lifestyle myself.

These just some of the incidents, and these are absolutely not things that have just arbitrarily been blamed on the travellers.

  1. At 2am one night a truck drove up and down our main village road - 2 men on the back whacking the parked cars with an iron bar. My husband's car windscreen was smashed, and many neighbours lost windscreens and wing mirrors. We slept through the whole thing Blush (we have excellent double glazing) but my neighbour saw the whole thing, and identified them as travellers from a camp in the next village, about 2 miles away.
  1. My ds went to local village school when we first moved here. I sent him there because I wanted to be able to walk to our village school and I had no problem that there were quite a few traveller's children there. Turned out they had a problem with my ds though, as I had to hear daily stories from my lovely, gentle, kind ds about being kicked, tripped and pushed over in the playground, chased around, told he smells of poo, told that he had to give them £20 or they would kill his mum. The Head would not do a thing about it - would warble on about how school had to 'be a haven' for these children - literally we had no redress. We lasted 1 term before I moved him - thankfully he is at a wonderful school now.
  1. My daughter was very ill at 15mths old and hospitalised for 3 days. I stayed in the local hospital's children's ward with her; another patient was a irish traveller - a 15 year old girl. She was seriously ill and in a private room, the doctors didn't know what was wrong with her. I know this because I chatted with her mum in the tea-making area. She was nice - admired my dd, swapped stories, gave my dd an on-the-spot diagnosis Grin (incorrect though). They were a very loud extended family, and there were lots of disfferent family members to-ing and fro-ing. It was obvious from overheard conversations that there was some sort of massive family feud going on. The next thing I know, the police are on the ward, guarding the daughter's room - some feuding family member has tried to attack her (either the mother or the daughter - I don't know) and now everyone except the mother are banned from the ward. The feuding family kept trying to gain entry, and so we were all asked to ring our visitors in advance and tell them not to let anyone else tag along behind them. Me and dd were actually going home that day and I don't mind saying that after the upset of dd's illness, the prospect of running into aggressive grown men who thought that it was morally acceptable to physically attack women in hospital, was very upsetting.
  1. A friend in my village owns a farm and a business run from the farm. They have a running feud with some local travellers, who regularly trespass on the farmland - the amount they have had go missing is truly shocking. Most times they actually see the men involved - always the same men - and call the police. The police come out, and many a time actually find these men and confront them - only to be told 'we're just looking for a dog'. They've had to build up the banks of all their land to stop them actually driving onto the land, but now they come in on foot instead. The police just send them on their way Confused
  1. A little old lady, living alone had a concrete block thrown through her living room window, again eywitnesses saw them, and identified them as local travellers. That old lady is now too scared to sit in her own front room.

Plus, there are countless BB gun vandalism on car and house windows - but these are without eyewitnesses, so can't say for sure who that is. Personally, though I suspect the little old man that lives in the row of cottages opposite us

I find it very difficult to reconcile my previously held views about travellers to my recent experiences of living in a close proximity to these ones. I also find it very hard to talk about the subject without feeling that I am somehow saying something 'racist' - I know that not all travellers are like this, but godammit these ones are! We are a normal law-abiding middle class family, and it is very difficult to live with a collection of people who have a completely different moral compass to us - they simply do not care how their actions impact on others, it's like they're completely lawless. The police are well aware of the above criminal acts, but have taken no action. I have heard similar stories that corroborate the lack of police action where eyewitnesses know travellers are involved as well.

My experiences in the school and in hospital will stay with me forever - I have quite simply never come across behaviour like it. If, as dilly says, the illegal residents of dale farm are like this, then the local residents have my every sympathy.

Notacitychick · 27/09/2011 12:10

Sorry, I did say 'briefly' there didn't I? Sorry it's so long.

alemci · 27/09/2011 16:31

After reading your post not a city chic it just reinforces my view that things are going badly wrong in this country with the police not being able to uphold the law and deal with this situation.

It seems that certain members of the public are allowed to get away with things that others are not. I don't think this just applies to the travellers either

alemci · 27/09/2011 16:33

Maths RE Jewish faith. On the whole they have been law abiding and fitted in and not demanded special status or treatment. I don't think this situation is anything like the horrendous things they have had to put up with over the generations

mathanxiety · 27/09/2011 16:55

'math Landlords who don't get their rent and mortgagees who don't get their repayments regularly turf people out of their homes.'

And your point is...?
Who is the landlord in Dale Farm? To whom do the residents owe mortgage payments?

'What about the law abiding people? We have no fucking human rights.'
'The police are well aware of the above criminal acts, but have taken no action. I have heard similar stories that corroborate the lack of police action where eyewitnesses know travellers are involved as well.'

Leaving aside any comment on the sense of being massively put-upon that may or may not be justified, and ignoring the EU bit completely, the question of the unwillingness or inability of the police to do their jobs here seems to be one that crops up in most stories of outrage committed by the Travellers. Has anyone tried pressing their MP or councillor about police inaction or unwillingness to enforce the law?

All people have basic human rights, whether you like them or not or whether they are like you or not, whether they are pure as the driven snow or otherwise. They are not given by one group to another and they can't be infringed because of alleged failure to provide any sort of quid pro quo in the form of civic spiritedness or law abiding behaviour. The law is the guarantor of human rights, civil rights and legal rights, not the people, the voters, the taxpayers, or the elected representatives.

mathanxiety · 27/09/2011 17:08

Alemci, nor do I wish to compare the two communities' historical experiences, but it is interesting to see the comments of Rabbi Janet Burden all the same -- she didn't say the Travelers are comparable in their history to the Jews either, but pointed out parallels in the element of vilification.

Jon Bergman mentioned the stereotyping and the stigmatising. The piling on of 'tales from the front' is where the demonising he mentioned rears its head imo. I think the question inspired by their comments should be - at what point does the accretion of such anecdotes start to become an exercise in demonising?

Andrewofgg · 27/09/2011 17:35

If only the worst the Jews had ever suffered had been to have the same laws applied to them as everybody else . . .

Andrewofgg · 27/09/2011 17:36

My point, math, is that people get turfed out of their homes all the time if they behave unlawfully, and setting up the encampment without planning consent was unlawful.

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