To have no sympathy for the burglar

[Mitmoo]

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

[eurochick]

Burglary is an horrific crime. Someone's personal space is invaded. It's a huge violation. My parents were burgled recently (the burglar was disturbed, so nothing was taken) but in addition to the physical damage where a massive rock was hoofed through their patio doors, my mum hasn't been sleeping properly and now they are moving house as she is not comfortable in the house alone any more. Before we lived together, my now husband's place was burgled. He came home to find his dive knife (vicious looking thing) laid on the ground in the hall, clearly intended to be used if the burglars was disturbed. That's terrifying.

I wouldn't hesitate to grab the nearest blunt object/knife and defend myself if anyone came into my property. You don't know what their intentiosn are - "just" theft or do they intend to tie you up and torture you for details of your savings account/where the safe is located?

[cookcleanerchaufferetc]

Spook - Tony Martin had been burglared several times. They guy he killed had just been released on bail that same day! If your house kept getting burglared and there you saw the burglar would you not lose the plot as Tony Martin did? I think Tony had mental health issues anyway. Thankfully he is no longer in prison. If that burglar had not gone into Tony's private residence then he would probably be alive. However, he chose to commit a crime and paid the ultimate price. I think Tony got treated unfairly.

If you enter someone's house illegally, then watch out - the end result may be bad but you should not be there anyway.

[ElasticNipples]

SOH you have the right to your own point of view you dont have to explain yourself.

these debates nearly always end like that thses days on mn.

[VelvetSnow]

I don't think being deliberately provocative Bats is the way forward for reasoned debate.

[niceguy2]

IIRC, the main difference with Tony Martin though is that he sat there waiting with a shotgun and eventually shot the lad in the back.

I'm very sympathetic to him but to shoot a lad running away is no longer self defence.

[BupcakesandCunting]

The reasonable force thing: I don't get it. For a few reasons...

1. I am a 5' 3", 10st 11lb woman. It stands to reason, feminist or not, that I would be unable to overpower most men. Therefore, if a man breaks into my home and I wish to defend myself (and I would) I don't think that administering a very ladylike rabbit punch to the kidney is going to be effective. I can't bring him to the ground and sit on him until heyulp arrives, either. So what I'm going to do is either whack him about the head with the nearest heavy, blunt object or I'm going to lay into him with a makeshift weapon. Until he can't get up. Unless I am certain I can knock him out or worse, I won't be happy because then I will have angered him and he will want to harm me or my child even more. So bringing him down is the only option here.
   

1. In a moment of panic, you don't have time to do a risk-assessment on koshing your assailant. You would most likely lash out, think about consequences later. It's instinct.
   

1. Most of us aren't SAS-trained fighters who can poke at a burglars temple in precisely the right spot to render him stunned. Most of us are average people who don't know that much about the art of bringing down another person without inflicting just the right level of injury, so that the poor lamb walks away with a little purple bruise.
   

I'm not being flippant here. I just genuinely don't get it. If tonight, I was faced with a 6 foot bloke doing my house over, I'd hairspray him in the eyeballs then whilst he's clutching at his face, I'd be looking for the nearest handy implement for squishing his skull.

[VelvetSnow]

I am in agreement with the OP especially the occupational hazard comment.

It should send a message to burglars to think twice not in the celine dion way :)

Although I do feel sympathy for the family & friends of the murder victim - they have still lost a loved one when all is said and done.

It's an awful situation - the homeowner was the victim of a burglary, he was then forced to commit this crime in an act of defence.

[CurlyBoy]

We were broken into recently and if it wasn't for our alarm he would have had free reign of our house. He still managed to get my wife's handbag and my car.

Coming from the US originally I would have no qualms about attacking a thief, except for having to get up close and personal. In the states I would have had a gun and here I just have metal bar! Sure, I'd feel bad about killing someone but as a previous poster said it's an occupational hazard!

[TakeThisOneHereForAStart]

Niceguy - "What bothers me is why the police arrest the homeowner on suspicion of murder.

Can they not ask the homeowner to be interviewed under caution rather than formally arrest them? The latter just seems to send out the wrong signals.

I'm all for police making sure the homeowner hasn't broken the law but I'd imagine the homeowner would be scared, quite possibly in shock and it seems the last thing you need is for the police to then come and arrest you!"

My DH is in the armed forces and he can be arrested under suspicion of murder or attempted murder if he has to defend himself from an attack while he is on guard duty.

I've never understood that. They give him a gun and a baton, stand him on guard and then tell him they will arrest him if he has to use either of the weapons on an attacker during an attack on him, his colleagues or his base.

I agree with you by the way, I don't think the homeowner should be immediately arrested in cases like this.

And I agree with the OP too, I really don't have much sympathy for someone who breaks into another persons home, carrying a weapon, intending to rob them and frighten them but with apparently no concerns about harming them if it comes to it, and ends up having that weapon used on himself instead.

[spookshowangellovesit]

you might well be right cook but i do believe that, that is the difference between reasonable force and not. he may well have had other burglars winding him up before hand and these burglars may well have had terrible home lives which led them in to a life of crime but neither of these excuses should or would mean that you can commit a crime and shooting a man in the back is a crime and that is why he was sentenced they way he was. it was not deemed to be reasonable force.

[CocktailQueen]

Occupational hazard am afraid. One less loser around.

[BupcakesandCunting]

And like I said on the other thread on this subject, the burglar was killed with his own knife. He didn't bank on being faced up by someone bigger and stronger than he was. He was probably hedging his bets on there being a woman/elderly person at home, less resistance for his knifey threats. Unluckily for him, he got what he didn't expect. That's what the rest of us call tough shit.

[mayorquimby]

And that would be reasonable bupcakes.

[BatsUpMeNightie]

Well I think being provocative on a subject that still affects me 14 years after the event IS necessary if someone is championing the rights of the burglar. That ain't going to change - ask anyone who's been burgled and I bet you won't find anyone with airy-fairy views on the matter. So I'll ask again - can someone (preferably showofhands) please explain to me why we should feel sorry for this, or any, dead burglar.

[Mitmoo]

Ken Don't know if the poop left was DNA'd to be honest it was my neighbour but they didn't catch the burgling pervert. I mean what would you do if you came home and found some wierdo shitting in your knicker draw?

I think it is only going to get harder to get prosecutions when you kill a burglar inside your home. As has been stated, how could the homeowner possibly know what the intentions of the burglar were?

[GandTiceandaslice]

He shouldn't have been in the house.

Personally I'd be mortified if someone broke in, I defended my property/family & killed the person.

We don't have t he death penalty & I don't condone killing.

But he shouldn;t have been trying to burgle a house.

It wasn't murder. At most, manslaughter. And the man shouldn't go to prison.

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

No sympathy from me either. You enter my home uninvited by force and you takes your chances. Tough shit.

I'll never forget the bloke who rang in to LBC a few months back when they were discussing a similar topic. He had defended himself against two burglars (no weapon, he was a karate black belt or similar) and badly injured one of them. He spend 2 years in prison and missed the first two years of his son's life, the same son who was less than 2 weeks old and in the house when the scumbags broke in. All because someone decided they were entitled to break into his house, threaten his family and take what they fancied.

[Mitmoo]

I think the family are wrong to put flowers outside the victims house, as the victim is the man who was forced to stab the burglar. Did they have not a more appropriate place for their tributes, his local pub, drug den perhaps, or even his own home.

Makes you wonder how some people tick.

[aftereight]

Two knives were found at the scene, one belonged at the property, so one must've come onto the property with the burglar.
To defend oneself with a knife against an intruder bearing a knife, would surely be reasonable?
I find the burglar's family laying tributes outside the house to be extremely distasteful. If I was a neighbour I would be binning the flowers. The burglar was ultimately a victim, but his was a very high risk occupation (with high potential rewards for little outlay of time/resources).
Assuming that the burglars were unknown to the householder, it is the householder who has my sympathy.
I do wonder what sort of armed burglar chooses to undertake a job 10 mins before the start of Xfactor at a house with 3 vehicles on the drive though... and certainly in that area there are plenty of houses with potentially richer pickings..

[Marne]

Wasn't there more than one buglar? shame they didn't get the other one too, bloody serves them right.

People should be allowed to protect their home and family, anyone that decides to break into a house deserves it.

[spookshowangellovesit]

i was mugged at knife point when i was 16 batup, he came up behind me and put a knife to my throat and grabbed my bag, demanded it. many things ran threw my head screaming, fighting back etc. ultimately i just gave him it and he ran away throwing the knife as he went. happily for me a slightly pissed man was just behind us and chased after him until he threw my bag back at him to stop him following him, he kept shouting over his shoulder at him "i need it, please, i need it".
he wasnt caught that time, but he was when he mugged an old lady and it turned out he was a 15 year old boy, addicted to drugs. part of me was mortified that i had been mugged by a 15 year old,(the shame) i so should have fought back. then i was really angry that he only got 6 months.
but at no point did i think god if only i had wrestled the knife off him and stabbed him because he would be better off dead. i felt sorry for him if i am honest.
not the same thing as having some one in your home i know but a similar feel of being very scared.

[TotemPole]

I wonder if there's more to this story than a straight forward burglary.

I agree 7:50 is a strange time isn't it?

Do burglars knock on the front door these days?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"If tonight, I was faced with a 6 foot bloke doing my house over, I'd hairspray him in the eyeballs then whilst he's clutching at his face, I'd be looking for the nearest handy implement for squishing his skull."

And there's not a jury in the land would convict you of anything if you did. The test is that the force has to be 'reasonable' and 'proportionate'. A 5'3 woman, frightened, faced with an intruder who may/may not be armed, dangerous or whatever, she doesn't know.... would be acting both reasonably and proportionally in self-defence, whatever she chose to do next. Where as a very large, powerful man, faced with a small, unarmed teenager that he has easily subdued would not be acting reasonably or proportionally to then finish him off wth a baseball bat.

[mayorquimby]

"People should be allowed to protect their home and family"

And they are and always have been allowed to.

[spookshowangellovesit]

it does sound a bit like dodgy dealings, but that is wildly speculating.