To think a school can't legally suddenly ban the headscarf for muslin girls!

[Headscarfs123]

So our local catholic school has banned the headscarf this week...disastrous for some of the girls but also against church advice that headscarfs are fine, against DFES advice about consultation and sensitivity to religious groups, against best practice as this type of change should involve the governing body? discriminatory on religious and sexist grounds...Sikh boys can keep their turbans.

Aibu to think that the school is legally in the wrong?

I have two close friends, who happen to be Muslim.

One is from a Pakistani background and has never, as long as I've known her worn a headscarf although her mother does. She is however always careful to cover her legs with opaque tights and never shows too much cleavage or the tops of her arms. She was an early adopter of the dress over leggings look.

The second is from a Bangladeshi background and again never wears a headscarf and neither does her Mother.

Both these girls come from religiously active families. My understanding from talking to them, but I'm prepared to be enlightened further, is that the covering of hair is not stricly about religious observance but about dressing modestly and that within their communities it is felt that this can be achieved without a headscarf.

Both of these woman, who are responsible professionals, feel very strongly that the Muslim community in the UK needs to integrate more and stop putting fabric barriers in their way.

A situation like this engages Art 9 ECHR (freedom to manifest religion). An interference with that right will however not necessarily be unlawful, if it is in order to protect the rights or freedoms of others. There was an important case about this in the House of Lords in 2007

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldjudgmt/jd060322/begum.pdf

In that case the complaint was that the school did not allow a jilbab, but did allow the shalwar kameez. The child had been enrolled in the full knowledge of the uniform rules, and the school had gone to considerable lengths to formulate a uniform policy which was acceptable to mainstream Muslim opinion. Parliament had given the defendants the power to make their own decision about uniforms, so the school?s insistence on their policy on uniforms being adhered to was a limitation prescribed by law which was proportionate to its purpose and objectively justified under article 9(2) even if it had interfered with the claimant's right to manifest her religion.

By contrast, what the OP says is that there has been a sudden change of uniform npolicy, which means that some Muslim parents will have signed up for this particular school without any notice that their daughters won?t be allowed to wear headscarves. It would be interesting to know what consultation the school has carried out with Muslim advisers in order to ascertain what would be a reasonably inclusive policy. If they have suddenly and arbitrarily decided to change policy I?d have thought it more likely that their action might be found to be unlawful.

But in what way does this differ to any change in uniform policy? Bearing in mind a headscarf is not religous dress? Schools presumably do have the legal right to change their uniform policy- banning brown shoes say- so how is banning a headscarf different?

Isn't is becasue they would be wearing the headscarf for religious reasons, although it is not a religious item of clothing in the same way a turban is.

Why not make a religion where brown shoes are recommended?

Well clearly you can't just decide an article of clothing is part of your religion and expect insitituions to respect that. That would make you an arsehole

Serenity Banning a headscarf is potentially different because it is an manifestation of someone's religious beliefs -- wearing brown shoes isn't.

It is worth reading the whole of the House of Lords decision if you are interested in this. One of the factors in Denbigh High School's decision not to allow the jilbab was that some pupils were worried they would be pressurised into wearing it. The school had carefully thought through why it should have the policy it did for dress for Muslim girls. It was partly to protect the rights and freedoms of certain pupils (to be lawful an interference with the right to manfest religious views has to be in accordance with the law, and necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others).

If a uniform policy that interferes with the right to manifest religion isn't for a legitimate purpose (such as to protect other pupils) or is disproportionate to acheiving that legitimate purpose, then it may be unlawful. It is not possible to say whether this particulary school's policy is lawful or not without knowing more about the reasons for it. I think one can say as a generality that a sudden change of policy without good reason would tend to put the school in more difficulties regarding the law.

I think all schools should provide an education without any religious doctrine being taught as fact, but I still think articles of clothing associated with religion should be tolerated within uniform policy- within reason, safety etc.

Its a difficult one- clearly that situation is specific to that school and that case, and the circumstances are very different to those outlined here.(of course one would hardly base their aibu opinion on what is or isn't or may be legally enforcable) but still it is interesting- I'm not sure how much it could be used in cases like this as it doesn't give any additional information on the banning of non religous articles which might happen to be more culturally popular in certain religions, like a headscarf

Well clearly you can't just decide an article of clothing is part of your religion and expect insitituions to respect that. That would make you an arsehole

Whoah nellie I was making a joke not having a go.

I think all schools should provide an education without any religious doctrine being taught as fact, but I still think articles of clothing associated with religion should be tolerated within uniform policy- within reason, safety etc.

Hear hear. I don't see the issue with wearing a headscarf as long as it adheres to school colours - for example my uniform was black, so headscarfs were too. The skirt was knee length for all of us (ha! more like bum length) and they were free to wear ankle length if they chose, but it was the same skirt.

Thanks for those with the practical suggestions... be interesting to see how it works out.

As the above poster says this us a local school for these girls. The dfes, catholic advisory bodies and others have a clear agreement that hesdscarves are not inappropriate whilst niquabs are. This school isn't being helpful to its Muslim girls, it isn't being fair in its decision.

The arsehole comment was a joke btw!

its just a scarf... why all the fuss. the school should not be making this change without proper consultation, its important to some girls with religious beliefs so they should have been a bit more sensitive as to how they approached this. wonder what their reason was, as I say its just a scarf, doesn't stop a girl doing anything or learning so why don't they butt out. makes me cross that schools instil rules over stuff such as hair length or colour etc IMO if pupil is wearing uniform then all the other stuff, as long as its not stopping them from learning or participating is just a control issue by the school.

I don't want to wear a headscarf as that is my choice. Yet I had to when travelling in certain countries as it was illegal not to. I will care for and respect their choices when they care for and respect mine.

Never knew British high school girls had such power and influence, setting laws in far-off lands! Or is it a different "they" you mean?

I think the headscarf is symbolic of the political and structural inferiority of women in many Muslim cultures.

I don't believe it's fundamental to the Muslim religion, it's a cultural reaction of some kind.
I think that Britain is a gender democracy and cultures who want to live here should respect that in the way they dress.
However painful I don't think incoming cultures should aim to dismantle fundamental and cherishes aspects of the nation's culture. Any more than I would go to a Muslim country and prance about in a bikini. That would be disrespectful and I would probably be imprisoned or killed.
I don't see why multiculturalism has to be set up so that a new culture can bully an old one into submission.

I know there are arguments that covering the head is empowering but I don't buy it myself. I think the cultures who are promoting this are profoundly and worryingly paternalistic.
There are schools local to me where most of the girls wear headscarves, so how is my daughter supposed to feel in that sort of context?

This is just my opinion and I mean no offence.

mrszimmer I don't think incoming cultures should aim to dismantle fundamental and cherishes aspects of the nation's culture

What? How is wearing a headscarf doing this?
And why would headscarves have ANY impact on the way your daughter feels? Is she a massive racist? Or does she have a terrible fear of scarves?

I wonder if any defenders of any religious attire are willing to accept it's divisive? You may say that that's racist/prejudice but the segregation is from both sides and happens throughout the land in playgrounds up and down the country. Children stick to their own, sadly.

Once you stamp your child with any beliefs (including prejudice against religion) you immediately limit their friendship groups.

have to admit why all the concern about muslim women and girls being forced or 'brainwashed' into certain clothing by men . What about the recent thread about women feeling pressurised to dress up for work in heels and makeup - many said even if it wasn't in the contract (for some it was in their contract) they were 'advised' to and they knew it would be held against them if they didn't. We can be a bit hypocritical and patronising about this in regards to muslim dress as often we are forced to conform ourselves to what is acceptable for a woman but don't even know it.

Why do we find it so much more acceptable to see teenage girls walk down the streets with very little on, caked in make-up and wearing ridiculous heels but we get all caught up in some girls choosing to cover their hair with a scarf. Obviously the hijab should always be a choice rather than forced, but many do choose to wear it.

I'm in favour of removing all religion from schools. I want the law changed so we can do that. It kind of proves my point about the dangers of religion that a catholic school thinks it can go ahead and do it without needing the law to be changed.

You can't let people who think that god makes the rules near children.

Why do children wear scalves in school when they serve no useful practical purpose??

Non whatsoever!!

CRAZY!!

on the other aspects of this I think this phrase:

f you have a faith you would want your child to go to a school of that faith.

is no more sensible than this one.

if you have a faith you would want your child to go to a shoe shop of that faith.

MrsZ Women wearing head-coverings was part of British culture until fairly recently. It is still very common to see older women who still always wear some form of head covering when out and about. Not covering ones head when out was the incoming fashion years ago which was said to be dismantling and disrespectful to British culture. Having head hair on display is no more part of British culture than skirt length, it's simply modern fashion which could be said to bully women into wearing this or that as much if not more than any cultural heritage. I think dividing people based on their clothing as to whether they cherish the values of this country is profoundly and worryingly xenophobic.

And why do men dictate what girls wear on their heads . What do THEY know??

CRAZY!!

Are you on the wind up animation?

CRAZY!!

Fanjobanjoanjo

No, I am not on a wind up. None of this makes sense to me, and I'm getting no answers.