To think that being able to tie shoelaces does not equate to good parenting?

[ElusiveMoose]

There was a debate on Radio 4 this morning relating to the headline about childcare costs, and one of the guests (don't know who she was) was using it as an opportunity to bemoan the lack of stay at home parents (surprise, surprise). As part of her argument, she suddenly exclaimed that 'the lack of one-to-one parenting has led to a situation where many children start school unable to even tie their own shoelaces!'.

Now, this is drivel in all sorts of ways that I won't dwell on (I didn't come on here for a debate about SAH vs. WOH), but it got me thinking about shoelaces. More specifically, I would be very interested to know how many of your starting-school-age children can tie shoelaces? I'm a gave-up-my-career-to-be-a-SAHM person of the sort that this woman would no doubt approve, but my nearly four year old son could no sooner tie a shoelace than fly to the moon (admittedly he's not actually starting school this year, but he would have been if he'd been born two weeks early instead of two weeks late). I haven't asked, but I imagine most of his little friends are the same.

It seems to me that the reason lots of (most?) 4 year olds can't tie laces is because a) it's actually quite a tricky skill, requiring considerable dexterity and practice, and b) very few shoes for young kids have laces these days. I was in Clarks today, and I noticed that they didn't have a single pair of school shoes with laces for young boys; the only laced ones were a couple of pairs of hiking-style boots.

So, in a nutshell I thought that this woman's assertion was the kind of lazy, thoughtless and baseless kneejerk criticism of working parents that we hear so much of. But then I got to worrying that maybe my son is unusual, and that other kids his age are busy tying endless Gordian knots with happy abandon. Opinions, please?

I bet it was, Bramshott; she said several bizarre things that made my teeth grind.
yanbu, I'm 44 and still can't tie my own laces well .

DD3 is Dyspraxic and she didn't manage to tie her shoe laces until she was 9. When she was in year 3 aged 7 her teacher told me that she had a few in her class who couldn't manage to tie laces.

Scholes One thing i have noticed as a football mum is that children who play football tend to be able to tie laces for the simple reason that if a lace comes undo midgame then mummy is not allowed to run on to the field to tie it for them

Children can't tie theior laces because unless you buy designer trainers (and even they are often velcro in smaller sizes) you can't buy children's shoes with laces for love nor money.

Dd learnt to tie hers when she was around 4/5 but only becasue her jazz shoes and tap shoes have laces.

Ds is 7 and a half and has no need to learn.

Bollocks. I'm a sahm and dd (pfb) only learned to do her velcro shoes/put her coat on by herself etc by watching 20 or so other kids do it at nursery. 1 on 1 care makes kids less likely to do these things early imo cos lazy child + parent in a rush invariably means that the parent ends up doing it.

i made ds learn to do them when he was about 6 as he had lace ups

i remember learning at school in the 70s. it was something we did as a class, probably no time now due to nat curriculum

I'm a sahm, my nearly 9 yo can tie her shoeslaces (fell in love with a pair of lace up winter boots last year and was determined to learn) but the others (7,6 and 3) are nowhere near able to. I have no intention of teaching them until they need to know.

cantspel - I just wish they'd make the laces longer on football boots!

Graciescotland I disagree pretty strongly with your comment. My ds couldn't do any of those things effectively when he first went to school, despite a lot of practice. I am SAHM and actively encouraged him to but he has always had fairly poor motor skills and just found it very hard.

He is much better now though, so had he been born three weeks later and starting reception now, I suppose I would be a much better parent

cantspel - similarly tap-dancing DCs (which is when my DD1 learnt)!

my oldest will be starting school next yr and i count myself lucky if i can even get him to put his shoes on his own feet without me doing it for him, let alone shoe laces.. and i am sahm. i think tying laces will be too hard for most 4 yr olds yanbu. i remember not knowing how to tie laces when i started school either, one of my friends taught it to me in the playground in infant school, and my mum was a sahm too. i dont think its related to working parents or not

PandaPop, my experience precisely. DS1 has done practically everything a bit later than most of his contemporaries, because I'm always around to do things for him, whereas they started doing things for themselves at nursery. By contrast, DS2 is already pretty independent at 12 months, because the poor little bugger has to get on with it while I mollycoddle help his brother.

My DD is 7yo and very capable. But none of her shoes ever had laces until earlier this year when I got her some converse style trainers. She couldn't tie them herself, but we've worked on it this summer and now she can.

Whether or not I am a SAHM has no bearing at all. It was all down to having the opportunity, motivation and physical skills to learn a particular skill at a particular time.

Was this the same guest who was citing "so many children these days are starting school in nappies

Yes, and they shot over that and got fixated in shoelaces - now to me teh nappies thing is a far far bigger trend to look at.

My Ds was 4 in July and is starting school tomorrow. He can't tie his shoe laces (although does try) and it has never occurred to me that this is something I should teach him to do prior to him starting school. He is a very bright child in many ways and I don't think it's fair that parents be judged on something so trivial in this day and age. I work but I don't think that I have taught him any less because of that, he can dress himself without issue, go to the toilet on his own (although when he is at home I do still wipe him bum for him as I am obsessed with cleanliness ), say his alphabet, spell simple words, do simple sums and count up to 100.

I think I am a good parent despite working and my DS not being able to tie shoelaces, fasten particularly difficult buttons or read.

Sorry for the rant I think it is probably due to the fact that I do feel bad for working full time when there is nothing I would love more than to be with my DC but needs must. In the end I am only trying to do my best for my family and don't like being criticized for that.

My local Infant school actually asks the parents at the induction meeting not to send their kids with lace up shoes...because no matter how good they are at it, they're often very slow or sometimes lazy and will ask the teacher.

This makes PE an absolute nightmare for them.

Whatmeworry - is it a trend though? I thought it was probably just hearsay bollocks.

SexualHarrassmentPandaPop Wed 07-Sep-11 14:00:55

Bollocks. I'm a sahm and dd (pfb) only learned to do her velcro shoes/put her coat on by herself etc by watching 20 or so other kids do it at nursery. 1 on 1 care makes kids less likely to do these things early imo cos lazy child + parent in a rush invariably means that the parent ends up doing it.

I agree. My SAHM friend's 5 year old is still carried downstairs from her bed and dressed by her mum each morning because a) she's lazy and used to having everything done for her and b) it's quicker for her mum to do it.

I was brought up in the sixties by a SAHM and I certainly didn't know how to tie my shoelaces aged 4. But then I didn't have to start school aged 4 either so noone noticed the dreadful deficiencies of my mother's parenting.

I was filling in DDs starting pre-school book yesterday thinking "nope, can't do that, nope can't do that!" She is 6mths younger than most other starters, but I'm quietly confident that she will pick them up far more easily at pre-school watching other children do them than with me getting frustrated at home.

With the shoelaces I remember it being a bernado's challenge at school (remember getting sponsored to learn the names of all the counties in the UK etc) to learn to tie laces in I think yr2?!

So I'm not convinced that twenty years ago kids were any more competent!

I have never met a child starting pre-school in nappies without SN. (and very few with SN tbh)

pre-school?! I meant school there.

YANBU - my DS couldnt tie his laces at age 7. Despite several teachings and me being a SAHM

Back in the dark ages, when I started school, everyone could tie shoelaces and do buckles - if not on arrival, then certainly by the end of the first term. We had to - there was no Velcro. It was sod all to do with parenting, and everything to do with being able to dress yourself. Children learn what they need to, when they need to - and the blessed advent of Velcro for shoes means that it's not needed at that age and gets put off. It happens to all children - whether SAHMed or WOHMed (or raised by wolves ). And is nothing whatsoever to do with parenting.

My DCs probably couldn't do it until well into KS2. They could however do oodles of things I couldn't - skateboard, use videos, DVDs, digital cameras and loads of other stuff. The world moved on - needs and opportunities changed.

DS2 is still in nappies and started school yesterday. He has SN though. The school said he is the first child in nappies (SN or not) they have had in the 80 years its been open.