to think this was not an ok thing to say to a child?

[winnybella]

Just a little rant, sorry. Quick background: separated from EA and on a couple of occasions violent ex few years ago, we have a DS (9), we split care 50/50 as we live very close to each other and he's a decent father. I have since met DP and we have DD(2).

So, picked up DS from school today. He said that he mentioned to his father that we (i.e. DS, DP, DD and I) might go to my mum's country house for Christmas and that we might take a horsecart across the lake there (probably not, it was just someone said and DS heard, the lake does freeze and ice is very thick as temp regularly 20 degrees below zero there, but still wouldn't risk it).

Ex said to him ' If anything happened to you, I would kill your mother and her DP, strangle her DD and then kill myself'.

Now, I see that he would feel the urge to murder me should I cause harm to DS because of my stupidity, but surely it's not something you say to a child? I said to DS' Oh, he was just joking', and he said ' No, he was serious'.

I don't know, maybe it's not a big deal, but I try to be civil all the time for the DS's sake and every month or so something comes up that makes me question his sanity.

I mean, 'Strangle DD'???WTF? How does that even cross your lips?

Unmarried Fathers can acquire parental responsibility in any of the following ways:

(a) By jointly registering the child?s birth with the mother (for births registered after 1 December 2003) you will automatically gain parental responsibility (i.e. there will be no separate official document stating that you have PR) [CA 1989 s4(1)(a)]. It is the date of registration, not the date of birth which is important in determining whether the father has parental responsibility.

(b) By re-registering the birth for pre December 2003 registrations, to add the father?s details, you will automatically gain parental responsibility [CA 1989 s4(1)(a)].
You would either need the mother to attend with you or provide a formal declaration of agreement that your name is to be added to the birth record.
NB: the birth can only be re-registered if the father?s name was omitted from the original registration. If it is already there, you cannot re-register, and therefore you cannot gain parental responsibility by this means.

Not sure how it works if they live in France though, the OP would need to find out.

I agree re:psychologist. I said that I will take him to see one.

I also agree that I should have never gone for shared care. As ex was a good father to DS (except, obviously, treating me like shit) and DS was very attached to him, I thought that it would be the best for him. Clearly this incident has made me think twice about it.

OP You said in your first post that it would be a risk and a stupid thing to do. Just pointing out the child should be told that too, whoever told him it would be fun.

DS was born in the States. Ex is on the BC, he definitely has PR.

Yes, agree. Tbh as we live in Paris and walking on ice is not a problem, I have neglected to tell him about the danger. But you're right, in a couple of years he might go to Bois de Vincennes or something and attempt walking on ice . I will talk to him about it.

If it was heard in the English courts you would have a hard time in retracting shared care once the precendent has been set unless there is some logistical reasons such as you both living far apart and son travelling to schools or other major reason.

A good father doesn't abuse the mother in front of the children, that's an abusive father as others have said. I'd get the psychological reports and take it from there. I wouldn't allow contact to happen until the reports are done either.

And DS has seen the choking accident.

Jesus, it feels like I'm reading one of the hundreds of threads on here where something is very obvious to everyone but the OP . I'm this OP now.

But the situation is like this : 5 years of shared care. During this 5 years there haven't been accidents like this. There have been a few nasty emails/texts received, true,especially in the period immediately after our separation. I don't recall any threats to kill me. Ah, sorry-except one at DS's birthday 4 years ago.

Why didn't I go to the police then? It's too late now, isn't it. But it was said in anger, not in a calculated way iyswim, I didn't take it seriously. But obv. it was a horrible thing to say in front of DS. I think 7 years with ex has ground me down, have taken away any decisiveness, strenght, iyswim.

But other than that, the last few years was fine. We had a few spats relating to DS, but nothing dramatic. I thought we might just about get along til DS is 18. Ex had a couple of long term girlfriends, started working well, I thought he has let go any (or most) of any anger or bitterness towards me.

And then this.

The same thing happened to me as a child. My father said that if X happened, he will kill my mum and her partner in X way. A few weeks later he did kill someone (not one of them). You have to listen to what this man is saying and take it seriously, and do everything in your power to limit/stop contact between your son and him. Because it is incredibly damaging.

I'm quite concerned for your ds's emotional health tbh.

He has heard his dad threaten to kill his mum on at least two occasions, and his little sister on one.

He has witnessed violence towards his mum.

He is obviously worried by this or he wouldn't have brought it up.

You need to focus on the best thing for your DS.

Perhaps as izzy has said earlier, I never thought ex is capable of doing serious harm to me. He's a little worm, likes to posture and make himself big, but I never felt in real danger. The choking thing happened after an arguement, he lost it and held me in a hold for a few seconds.

I think he has eroded my confidence and self-esteem then, that's why I didn't call the police. I left soon after. There weren't any other violent episodes. I guess I was rationalising that 2 times in 7 years is not that much and as I knew I was about to leave (got a job and a flat) and I wasn't scared of him or thought I owe him to stay etc, I just decided to let it go and try to work something out that would be ok for DS (as opposed to his father going to trial).

I would do lots of things differently if I was given a second chance.

You are right, MrsBradley.

So, psychologist first, yes? Then lawyer to see where we stand following psy's report (if there is anything to report).

Oh, now I rememberd that 3 years ago we were concerned about DS's behaviour in school (very disruptive, could also be mean to other children) so we asked a school psychologist to have a talk with him.

We went to see her afterwards (separately) and all she would say re:ex is that it seems DS and ex's relationship is too, hmm, what did she say, not to close, symbiotic? , sorry, don't remember, but basically implied that it's too close to the exclusion of others. But she said nothing else in a way of ex saying inappropriate things etc.

WB He has a history of violence, choking you (my ex did this too it's terrifying), threatening to kill you 4 years ago (he's capable, he's proven ths to you). Right let's try to be positive from here on in. YOu are where you are and what's done is done.

By the way it is very common for a person who has been emotionally abused to be ground down, their confidence zapped and decision making messed up for a while, giving to many chances to their abuser. (done it myself until it came to my child then he could go and boil his head before he got my child on his own).

You've got to get that tigress inside you out of there, you have got to fight for your son's safety and let nothing get in the way of that. You need to plan what you're going to do from where you are now.

So here's what I'd do:

1. Inform your ex that your son will not be seeing him at the next meeting until psychologists reports have been completed.

1. Tell him that threatening to kill his sister even in hypothetical situations has disturned your child and you both want what's best for him. You will be guided by the psychologist.

1. If he wants to talk to the psychologist himself he can but away from your child unless psychologist wants to observe them together.

1. Explain to your son that both of you love him very much but there is something that you both need to sort out before he can see his Dad again but he can talk to him whenever he wants on the phone.

1. Go to the police, get an incident report even if they do nothing, log it. If you later claim to feel in fear of him if anything else happens and you have done nothing, you won't be believed.

Sory have to go back in a bit.

My SIL (at the time SIL-to-be) drunkenly told me once that she would kill me if I ever hurt her brother. Completely different situation I do appreciate, but she was a bit drunk and very serious. It was actually quite threatening coming from a grown woman. My point is that SIL was kind of showing off - using an example of complete over-protectiveness for her brother to demonstrate her love for him. Totally out of order and unnecessary, but she is a bit like that all-round.
I agree that this is a sinister and utterly inappropriate thing to say to a child, and wouldn't want to go against what previous posters have recommended - however it is possible that you exP was showing off to your child? i.e. 'see how much I love you' (also implying that by considering taking him on such a trip, you are the irresponsible parent)?
Having said that, it remains a foul and unforgivable thing to say to or about anyone and I agree that it should be recorded.

And ex is sort of fixated on DS, if that make sense (of course we all love our children, but he is too intense sometimes).

And DS is having trouble in school with making friends and ex is totally ignoring it and doesn't think it will do him any harm. And does not do things with him like teach him to ride a bike or to swim. We have fianlly managed to teach him how to ride a bike this summer (DP and I, tbh DS is very reticent when it comes to learning new things he thinks he may fail at).

Anyway.

Stormers I don't really know what to say.

You really do need to get that legal advice. They will be able to tell you what you can do from here and if it is too late to report the threats and abuse.

Lots of people here have said things that I fully agree with and gapants has it spot on.

If nothing else you need to remember that in normal relationships and normal break-ups nobody gets their hair pulled, nobody gets strangled, nobody issues heat-of-the-moment death threats and nobody spends time working out a detailed plan of how to murder their ex and her new family which includes a detailed idea of how to strangle a two year old child.

Good fathers do not let their children witness them mentally and physically abusing that child's mother. Good fathers don't tell their children about their plans to murder their mother, step-father and sister and their plans to subsequently commit suicide afterwards.

No threats are acceptable, not heat of the moment ones and not ones that are based on speculation of what might happen in the future.

The pressure he has put on your son is unbelievable. "If anything happens to you I will kill your mother and everyone else before killing myself."

No normal person, no good father, says that to a child.

In your OP you said this: "I don't know, maybe it's not a big deal, but I try to be civil all the time for the DS's sake and every month or so something comes up that makes me question his sanity.

I mean, 'Strangle DD'???WTF? How does that even cross your lips?"

So every month you are questioning his sanity and you are shocked to the core by his threat to strangle your daughter (and rightly so, it is shocking to anyone who isn't barking mad!)

It's not too late to do something to protect your son and your daughter.

As someone else said, he's proved he's capable of violence and he has clearly spent some time brooding on how to kill you and your family if he feels you deserve it.

Just because it has been years since you broke up, it doesn't mean he has given up his 'claim' on you or his 'right' to possess and control you in some way. Or his 'right' to punish you if he feels you deserve it. It's not just you, he's involved your whole family in this, including a two year old girl.

Don't wait too long on that legal advice, and don't worry that you won't be believed, are over-reacting, or have left it too late.

He's a contol freak and a manipulator who seems to be convinced that he can successfully lie to you about what went on.

And if you just let this go then you are letting him. But you don't have to, and other people outside the situation can see him for what he is. As you say, you've found yourself in that situation now, where you feel like the only one who couldn't see what was happing. But now you can see, you have to act and get your son and the rest of your family away from him. He's not safe, even if the worst thing that happens is your son growing up to think this is normal, to abuse and control and threaten and lie and turn dispicable threats into a joke. It's not normal, but by ignoring it you will be sending the message that it is.

tiddley- yes, I agree-he likes to show how much he loves him and would do anything for him. In reality, he doesn't really do what's best for him Ii.e. teach him how to ride a bike or take his problems at school sriously, for example).

takethisone- I might have exaggerated in saying 'every month' I question his sanity. Perhaps I should have said 'his good judgement' and more like few times a year. We certainly didn't have incidents like this in the last 4 years. Not to try to say that he's a lovely person, not at all. But if things like that were happening, I would have gone for residence.

That's why now I feel like I've been a bloody idiot and he very well might have been saying crap to DS all the time.

I agree with mitmoos suggestions. winny your first thing to do is protect your son and regardless of physical violence this man is mentally and emotionally abusing your ds. Sounds like he's good at putting a show on for others

The more posts I read from you, winny, the more I worry for your son.

You need to write every violent or abusive act sincxwe you s;lit up.

You need to reassure your son you would never put him in harms way.

You need proper advice as this can not end well if it is left to carry on the way it has been for 5 years.

New to this thread so apologies if someone else has already said this and I missed it reading through:

winny, the reason that domestic violence support workers do a risk assessment with new service users is that women very often underestimate the risk their ex/partner poses to them. For some reason, even though on one level we 'know' what has been said and done to us, we can't quite bring ourselves to believe they will act on their threats. Sadly, they do.

Also, when using those risk assessments, previous incidents of choking/strangulation are very significant in terms of the degree of risk posed. It is scarily easy to kill someone that way.

Given he has previously choked you, and now used that same language to your son when talking about your daughter, I think you are right to be taking this seriously.

FWIW - Ex's are arseholes; its in the job description. He said something stupid, but you aren't about to kill his son so I guess the chances of him "wreaking his revenge" are also pretty slim.

If your son has problems at school then I would suggest that is sorted but lots of kids have issues and problems; the two things are not necessarily related.

People on here who make such statements as "I would move to China", whilst I am sure well-meaning, are typing pointless nonsense. No you wouldn't fucking move to China, or the other side of the world and if you did, you're a moron.

It is easy to go in all guns blazing when all you have to do is type the words and hit 'post message', but what you decide to do here will affect your son and his relationship with his father for a long time.

No he doesn't sound like the perfect dad, but no poster on here (except YOU) can say whether the potential risks to your son from this comment outweighs the emotional damage of severing contact with his father.

Lets not assume every dickhead who says something hugely inappropriate is an axe-wielding mass murderer, they're not.

FannyAnnPam is obviously the dad.

Do you think it may not be a serious threat but a misuse of language? I only ask because some people use stronger language than others but without the intent.

"Mum'll kill me if I do that" could be a very real fear, or (usually) an over dramatic vocabulary.

I would definitely raise this issue with your ex, even if you start off as though its simply inappropriate language, rather than 'you threatened to kill us'.

Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and go against the consensus.
Saying what he did was out of order, but we all let our mouths run away with us at times, don't we?
I think he was probably just angry at you for suggesting such a silly thing, and I'd go nuts if anyone said they would take my DCs on a frozen lake, I have hammered into them that it is DANGEROUS.

boasting there is a context to the comment and the Ex has a violent background...