...to think that 4 year old dd should have sussed toilet training by now?

[Groveregg]

I have so had enough today; we took nappies off dd a year ago at the beginning of August; she had a month at Christmas where she was perfect and then it all went backwards after a dose of flu, and ever since apart from the odd day, the only times when she is consistently good at keeping her pants clean and dry is when we are on holiday. I am having a bad couple of days as we are back from a two week holiday and she is suddenly not going to the toilet at all and screaming and fighting me if I try to suggest it. 4 poos in pants today and I've lost my temper twice badly. It has been a constant battle of wills all year and I feel like jacking it all in. Maybe she should start school next week in nappies...

And yes we have done reward charts and treats before some bright spark suggests it

We had similar problems with DD until she was about 4. A combination of two things worked - we started to have a "poo party" each time she had a successful visit to the toilet. We had cakes, party poppers, balloons - the works every time! I also told her a wee white lie, that Mummy had been given a row by the nursery teachers because DD was still pooing in her pants. She really hated the idea that I was getting a telling off.

It really does pass with time - I'm sure you're DD will get it soon.

Hmm I like that line HeathersMummy - might have to use that if something untoward happens at school! Party sounds good fun too.

Also the idea of a really big treat for a consistent time sounds good, might think about that one.

Just had a particularly bad bedtime with another poo in pants and refusal to finish it in the toilet. I had a good talk to her about how we know she is choosing to do this and how she has to be a big girl as we cannot put up with this any more. Lets see how it pans out tomorrow. Probably just as bad but at least I have given myself a bit of a pep talk in the process, and now it is o'clock

Groveregg, I think your DD responds very much to your moods. You are anxious for her to be clean and dry before starting school and be a 'big girl', but she is probably apprehensive about starting school and doesn't want to be a big girl at the moment. Hence the clinginess, getting your attention with the soiling, defiance about using the loo etc.

When you were on holiday everything was fine, you were happy and relaxed, school seemed like a distant prospect; now you are back and making preparations and stressed, and DD is reacting.

You really have to chill about this. Positive praise/presents when she gets it right, no attention when she soils, other than to tell her to change/clean up/ put soiled clothes in laundry etc. Increase the attention you give her when she has clean and dry pants. I think she may well be much better when at school, because she won't want the teacher and other children to think badly of her.

Girlywhirly you are probably so right. When I chill about it it does gradually get better - it's just hard some days to stay chilled about it. Yesterday was one of my worst for ages, but it was always going to be: imagine coming home from a really good 2 weeks of holiday, so good that I had forgotten about all the trouble, only to be plunged back into the midst of it with more dirty pants than I could shake a stick at. There is nothing worse as a mother than the feeling of going backwards!

This morning was just as bad but thanks to everyone's advice and support I stayed pretty calm and made her clean up as much as she could every time. 5 pairs of pants and lots of whining about the clearing up later after lunch she quietly went off to the toilet and finished off her big poo in there and we have had dry knicks ever since. I'm not going to dream that that's it but I feel I've had a rest from it this afternoon and felt able to take her to see the Smurfs!

Well done Groveregg for keeping calm and following through with the cleaning up. I think your DD had got the message that actions have consequences, and it was simply easier to just go to the loo. Plus she will realise you will have more time to spend positively with her, instead of it being taken up by cleaning and washing soiled pants etc.

Let's hope so, thanks for that. She has been clean all this morning but I am trying to keep it in my head that this is more luck than judgement and it could go wrong at any moment! Off on a picnic soon so will be packing at least 4 pairs of pants and leggings!

HV is coming round later to discuss it again, let's hope I can give her some good news.

Reading with interest. DD1 is 4 and a bit, and is frequently wetting herself, claiming 'she can't feel it coming out' but can also stay dry for a long time. She's also wetting her bed at night sometimes, even if we 'lift' her.

She CAN do it, and doesn't seem bothered by it. She is starting 'Big School' in a couple of weeks' time, and has a 7m old baby brother, so, having read all this, I do wonder whether it's an attention thing. While I don't get cross any more, DH and I are exasperated at what to do next.

Think we'll try the 'never mind, pop upstairs and get a new pair when you do' type approach?

Hmm not having a very good day. Trying to stay calm but actually getting quite upset and frustrated about it all. I am making her clear up after herself and she's getting really whiny about having to push her pants into the water in the bucket. She seems a shadow of herself, whining about everything and her whining has always driven me up the wall. Keep suggesting she tries the toilet and she screams at me and whines some more, and is really anti the whole idea. Wee happens on the toilet but nothing else. I am worrying that there is a big poo waiting to get out and that is what is making her whiny - and worrying about how things will get if she doesn't let it out anywhere.

I am feeling like I don't want to be with her as it's so miserable. This is so rubbish, I always had a vision of having a lovely together weekend before she started school, not to have it overshadowed by this crap. Must overcome these thoughts and try to make the best of it.

Well, I'd say she is actually more anxious about starting school than anything, and she knows that you are too. I'd actually not make any suggestions about using the toilet, even if she is clearly withholding, because she will flatly refuse and it will be all about control of wills. I'd bet hanging on to her poo and deciding where she will do it or not is the only bit of her life at the moment where she is in control.

What about suggesting something fun to do together to take her mind off it? And stop the whining, which she knows gets on your nerves. I used to 'tune out' whining, or remove myself from the vicinity of the whiner, turn up music or vacuum loudly, whatever you fancy. But please don't push her away, you said yourself she's better when you are all happy together and relaxed.

I think she might do as yesterday and slink off to the loo when she thinks no-one is looking.

I haven't had any experience of toilet training so I apologise if this is daft advice. But I was reading a blog a few days ago about someone's DC doing the toilet dance but refusing to go. One of the replies said that when she saw her DC doing the dance, she would say "ooooh, I really need a wee" and then her DC would say "me too, I'm going first!" Apparently, any other gentle suggestions were met with stubbornness and shouting. Although I appreciate your situation sounds a little more deep routed.

Really hope you manage to make some progress soon, it sounds so frustrating.

I'm not one for giving treats if DD used the toilet. At 2 it was just one of those things that needed to be done. I praised her for doing and that I was happy, but that's it. She has been dry for 8 months now, thankfully. There was a couple of times that I saw her regressing and if she peed in her pants, she had to change them and clean up. She only poohed once in her pants because I made her clean up. I think that is the key. They clean up. Also I found the more I hounded, the more resistance I encountered. I don't ask her at all.

I thought I would be inyour position with dd1 who is currently 3.9, for a good few months back there I thought she was never going to get it! Lost count of the number of accidents per day, mostly poo, her nursery were great about it but I was mortified, it was taking over my life! She ended up constipated then impacted from holding it in, we were juggling doses of laxatives and she was soiling... Grim! Anyway I am ashamed to say that I think what solved it was pure bribery; we had a bag like you but she wasn't interested in the crappy wee toys.. In the end she got a couple of massive prizes, eg £30 toys I'd found on eBay for under a tenner, it cost me a fortune but it seems to have worked!

Sorry posting one handed, forgot to say I did also try very harm to be calm and no fuss about the accidents, not easy. I'd say the whole thing took about 8 mths

I'm sorry but having had both a stubborn will not train type and secondly the encopresis type ,I would say your daughter has classic encopresis.The little poos are the leakage from around the side ,she will have little or no warning of these,punishing is pointless .The whining is the irritation and discomfort from the impaction,mostly she will be able to clear these but it will be uncomfortable and sometimes painful.This will make her more stressed about her bowels and so the cycle continues.
It will be better on holiday etc because she will be less stressed and also more distracted,also you will be less stressed.

I would recommend referral to encopresis clinic,I also found homeopathy helped in retrospect it was about relaxing me and homeopath was happy to let me wittier for 30 mins about ds and his bowels

Swimming a very good activity as well ,if he was very bad 10 mins in the pool and he would need to get out to go!

mrswoodentop - that does seem like the most likely cause doesn't it - worth checking out (again?) Groveregg?

Thanks for everyone's input. girlywhirly you were spot on; we went out for a couple of hours and she got much happier, had a nice tea and we've only had one dirty pair since then. I've had two sessions with her sitting on the toilet with me reading books and trying to make her feel more comfortable about being in there. I think (after having a half hour lying in bed on my own with a sudoku book!) that she has got thoroughly stressed out by a horrible week of me losing my temper in the toilet and maybe me being a bit over strict over the cleaning up which has made her thoroughly miserable. Tomorrow will try to be gentler and try to get it out of my head. And think of some good bribes to get things going again. Making her miserable isn't ideal when she's starting school on Monday. Need to make her the happiest and most secure she can possibly be.

mrswoodentop - with encopresis isn't it usually runny poo that leaks? Her poo in the pants is usually perfectly normal consistency and I am still more or less convinced that it is purely a mental problem as she has been so unhappy and it always happens after she deliberately goes in another room or away from me. Admittedly - for the first and hopefully only time - today I do think she could do with having a big poo to make everything feel better so will keep my eye on things.

My dd was very stubborn too, and although I think it started as a behavioural issue it soon became a physical issue- we used movicol in very small doses to get things going and that helped massively!

I have one who climbs on the toilet at 20 months urgently telling me he's doing a wee..... and one who resisted potties until nearly 3 and then we had to go cold turkey with chocolate coin rewards for every piddle - so I know there is no one sized fits all solution.

If they get it fairly quickly, then they get it, all good. If they don't then I will add my voice to the party that says BRIBE - and BRIBE HARD.

Especially if they're about to start school. There just isn't time for them to gently become accustomed to it all when teachers aren't allowed to wipe bottoms, far less change nappies.

I love the idea of a poo party.

Grove I posted on this yesterday having read through all your posts and replies, and DH and I decided we would try a different tack - and spoke to her today. I said,
"I'm sure you'll sort it out soon enough because I know you can. It's important that you do wees on the loo and not in your knickers, but I'm not going to get cross if you have an accident, nor are we going to give you anything special/any treat if you stay dry all day. But if you do have an accident, you pop upstairs and change your knickers. Don't need to tell us if you don't want to, and when you go to school I'll put a few spares in your bag so that if you have an accident there you can just change your knickers without having to tell anyone." and left it at that. First day only today (and we're only talking wees, not poos), but there were no accidents. Will keep you posted if it works...

(We'll tackle night-time sleeps when we've got this sussed)

my ds regresses when he's ill or stressed, i do know one of my brothers was really hard to potty train, he would sit on the potty/toilet for ages then get up and do a poo/wee behind the settee, he use to hold poo/wee too till he couldn't hold it any longer, he wasnt scared of the potty/toilet or anything he was just very very stubborn and controlling

My DS 4 and starting reception on Tuesday has picked the past 2 weeks to regress. Same as Salads DS he regresses with his poos when stressed or ill. I don't always pick up on the fact that he's stressed as apart from the poo problem he can seem perfectly happy. He's also of a controlling nature and really not that bothered about being a big boy as he feels the pressure that comes with this title.

He'll let his poo come out a bit if he's engrossed in a game or tv programme and would rather have do this than interupt what he's doing. I try to explain that the game could wait or we can pause the tv, but he doesn't remember in time.

He had got it and was clean and dry 8 out of 10 days so I know he can do it.
Its got to be the worry about 'big school'.

So I will be sending him to school knowing that he's likely to come home with dirty pants. Once he's been going to school for a few weeks I'm sure he'll go back to being better. I hope the teacher helps him when he needs his first poo at school and actually remembers to go!?

bumbums you sound so calm, must take a leaf out of your book! Dd's teacher didn't sound phazed by it in the least so it sounds quite common.

Trying to start the day positive but had a bad night's sleep over it and feeling a bit rough and ragged. Hope I can stay calm. We have shown her a Playmobil set as a bribe for a clean day but am not pinning my hopes on it; I just am hoping to find something that can break the cycle. Also determined to show her I'm not angry as she seemed pretty scared yesterday every time it went wrong. I am so bad at this, feel entirely responsible.

Hope you have a better day,actually the leakage can look like normal poo ,it did in our case,it's effectively bits that break off (sorry TMI)the shaping only happens at the end .Also it can affect the sensation to poo so they ate bot getting the right warning signs,which is why retraining is important .

Sorry aren't getting the normal signs

Agree re the "overflow", it does look normal. We started on movicol not really sure if that was what was needed, and sure enough we had a day of massive clear outs (all TMI sorry!), then she started to go more regularly - a combo of the laxatives and the massive bribes!