to go ballistic and/or consider taking DS out of creche

[WakeUpRosemary]

I've posted this in Parenting but it's a bit slow over there and I need a bit of advice!

I posted a few months ago about an issue I had with my son's creche. He's 3.10 and had been bitten about three times in two weeks by a particular child. I was concerned that it had happened so many times. He told me who did it and I spoke to the manager to ask what kind of procedure they had in these cases. She wasn't particularly helpful and got quite defensive.

However, DS hasn't been bitten since and he's generally happy in the creche so I let it be.

Today he was bitten again. My DH picked him up and was told there had been another incident. He said, 'oh I hope we're not going through this again!' or something to that effect. He was told that it was a different child that had bitten DS.

We later asked DS in a light-hearted way who had bitten him. He said, 'their name is 'I don't know''. We'd been joking about something similar recently so I didn't think much of it. Then, just before he went to bed, he told me he'd been bitten. I asked who did it and he said, 'I can't tell you'. I paused for a second and said, 'Did someone tell you not to tell me?' and straight away he said, 'Yes' and told me the name of a carer in the creche. He didn't pause or smirk or laugh. He was very serious and I believe him.

I'm absolutely furious. It's not the biting I'm worried about. I know young children do it and I thought it had been sorted out. It's the fact that this woman put my DS in the position of lying to me. He looked so worried. I just told him that if someone tells him not to tell me something that he should tell me because it's my job to keep him safe. I let it go at that. He still hasn't told me who bit him so he's obviously a bit torn about things.

I've persuaded DH to come with me to the creche in the morning to confront them.

Am I over-reacting? I'd love to know what other people would do? I feel like I want to take him out of the creche altogether although he's been happy there for so long. I'm starting college in a few weeks. He'll only be in creche three days but I need to know he's safe and happy. I don't have much time to find him somewhere else so I need to decide soon.

Sorry this was very long.

I am guessing that, although the staff member told your DH that it was a different child, it was maybe really the previous offender at it again.

So they told your DS to not say who it was?

Appalling. Go in icy calm, as TheOriginalFAB says.

The fact that the manager got defensive and cagey would make me worried, they do not sound very helpful about past biting issues.

therefore I don't think that they will be helpful in this case either.

Very, very serious issue. YANBU at all to be furious about an adult in a position of trust asking your child to lie to you.

I'd go in all guns blazing and take this complaint to the very highest level. I would also remove my child.

I'd also talk to him again about it as I think it's extremely important that he understands that no adult must ever tell him to lie to mummy and daddy.

I wonder if maybe by asking you led ds to that answer?

As a child care proffesional there have been (if I am honest) times when I thought oh shit don't want to have to explain that. But I always do, and not just because I am honest but because the last thing you ever want said about you is:

"X said not to tell." Because that's a hell of a lot scarier to a parent than dd geting bitten by another kid. Or the nanny ignoring ds to play on the internet while he sneaks all the cookies etc. Do you see what I mean?

I wouldn't think it would be worth it for the carer to be actually getting involved in a lie with a 3 year old because 3 year olds are unreliable. I am not saying adults don't get children to lie but only if the situation is a lot more serious than someone gettin bitten iyswim

Thanks for your replies. It's good to know i'm not being crazy.

Just to clarify: they told my DH about the biting, he signed an incident form. There are marks on DS's arm.

Last time DS was bitten it was by a particular girl. The creche didn't want to tell me who it was but DS told me. So I knew that this girl was in his room and that she'd done it three times. The last time was pretty bad and I confronted the manager about what the procedure was to deal with it. That's when she got defensive and that's why I think they don't want me to know who the most recent 'biter' is. The manager is very young and I don't think she can do her job.

The carer in question isn't his main carer. She's in another room: he's a preschooler and she looks after the toddlers. They all get together outside. He told me before that she was his favourite in the creche.

I'm afraid they'll take it out on him if I make a fuss but don't take him out.

SouthernFriedTofu, I understand what you mean. I don't care who the biter is, it's a child and these things happen.

MadamDeathStare: I think the cool and calm approach is good.

I was thinking that if they admit to it then I'll make sure that this woman tells him in front of me and DH that she was wrong and that he should tell us everything.

That is fucking awful

You are worried that they will take it out on your son if you make a fuss? You appear to have no trust in the professionals who are caring for your son. Why would you still be leaving him with them?

You don't seem to have much confidence in the creche management and the staff there.

Look for alternative childcare. You are never going to be fully happy leaving him there.

Yes, I would worry that he'd be treated differently. It depends on how they react tomorrow. I wouldn't have dreamt that this woman would be telling him to lie to me until today so maybe I'm feeling a bit paranoid right now.

I hope so, MadamDeathStare. DH doesn't want to change creches as he thinks it would be too disruptive and DS is generally happy where he is.

I'll be going around in circles all night about this. Coincidentally, I got a voicemail from a community creche today about a free place.

I thought that creches were not allowed to discuss who is doing the biting - I thought that they can only talk in generic terms about 'the child' who did the biting (I think they can be sued for discussing individual children with anyone other than that child's parents/carers), so I think this has all got confused by that and that was probably why they got defensive last time (didn't read your thread at the time)

I could easily imagine the following scenario taking place this time:

Sarah bites Johnny. Johnny goes round telling all the other children and creche carers "Sarah bit me". The carers say "Johnny, we're sorry you've been bitten, but it's not nice to tell everyone that Sarah did it"

Hey presto. He tells you he's been told not to say.

FWIW my DS got bitten a few times at nursery (usually by the same boy, though I wasn't supposed to know that). Each time it happened I simply thanked my lucky stars that my son was the bitten one, not the biter.

StillSquiffy: I did get the impression that I wasn't supposed to know who the biter was but DS is three so he can obviously tell me. I only wanted to know because I assumed it was a toddler who wouldn't be in his room usually. There's a child in my extended family who was a biter and was suspended from his creche because of it so I had wondered if my creche had the same policy (not that I wanted her suspended, I just wanted to know). I feel sorry for this girl and her family, it must be very troubling for them.

I'm so glad of all the feedback. I'll try to remain calm tomorrow and shall update as soon as I can.

I agree with Combine that asking 'did someone tell you not to tell me?' is quite a leading question and I could imagine my dd (almost 4) saying yes to that when the answer is no because the question almost invites that answer BUT if your trust in them is at such a low for other reasons that you suspect them of coaching your ds to lie then I think looking at a different care setting is a good idea.

Also in dd's nursery they have the policy of not telling the parents who has hit/bitten or whatever even though dd told me herself the one time there was an incident. I think that's the case for most nurseries.

Update: Well, we had another conversation with DS this morning and his story changed a bit. He still wouldn't say who bit him but said it was a boy. He didn't say anybody had told him not to tell this morning. He was a bit vague to be honest.

Anyway, we went to the creche and spoke to the manager. She visibly blanched when I told her what DS had said and immediately went to get his main carer. She told us that it had happened very quickly, she saw the child head towards DS and tried to grab him but was too late. She immediately took him away and picked my DS up to comfort him. DS was shaking because he got such a fright but he calmed down quite quickly.

Apparently DS doesn't know this child well, he's usually in another room and is relatively new. It's possible DS doesn't know his name and that's why he's not telling us. They took it very seriously and the manager looked upset and angry when I told her. I asked the manager if she could find out if any of the other carers might have said something that could have been misconstrued as telling DS not to tell.

She definitely knows how serious it would be if someone told him not to tell and they know how seriously we'd take it too. I think for now DS can continue going, he's happy there 99 per cent of the time.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback.

Keep a very very close eye on this and I would ask how things have been every time I picked him up.

Completely believe your son - they don't get these things wrong.

I'd make a stink about it!

Probably withdraw my child as well.

See this will teach me to never judge a post before I have finished reading it.

When you started off I was getting all eye rolly about achild being bitten by one child and then nothing for ages and until a differnt child bit him. I was thinking that this stuff happens sometimes.....

BUT THEN! Oohhhh YAsooooooNBU. Teaching a child to lie to/keep secrets from their parents is NEVER ok. I would be worried what else was being kept from me. I would not keep my dd in that setting.

It sounds like you have more general concerns about the creche - if there are several alarm bells ringing then you are probably not going to be happy unless you move him.

However, in terms of the biting thing, it sounds like there is a lot of potential for crossed wires and poor communication/poor strategies, rather than active deception if you see what I mean.

As StillSquiffy said, biting is a tricky issue for nurseries. We have a biter in DS's nursery and the nursery staff are extremely careful about how it is handled. They always look worried when they tell me that DS has been bitten - he likes the little boy who bites so is around him a lot, but he also has a bad habit of trying to take toys off other children so not surprisingly he has been bitten a few times now - my take on it is that as long as the nursery are doing their best to address the biting itself then I am not going to get worked up about DS getting a sharp nip when doing something he shouldn't be doing in the first place! However, I think some other parents have been getting quite irate about the issue and we had a newsletter issued recently asking people not to speculate about the identity of the child, or discuss it between parents - I know perfectly well who it is because DS and his closest little friend have both said so, and the nursery's reaction confirmed it, but I think other parents have been asking. A family member used to manage a nursery and confirmed to me that this was a standard policy - she said that they had huge problems with parents aggressively demanding to know the identity of a child who had bitten their child.

This sounds as though it could be a clumsy attempt to adhere to the anonymity policy rather than to hide the incident altogether. The fact that they told your DH that it had happened does make it a little unlikely that they simultaneously tried to get your DS to cover it up. What they might well have done is tried to explain to him (badly by the sound of things) that he shouldn't go round telling people the name of the child who bit him. That raises some questions about their approach, but doesn't in itself necessarily mean that anyone has tried anything improper.

If you are going to keep him there I would be focussing more on having better communication with the nursery staff, rather than necessarily getting bogged down in the who did what to who discussion. The whole thing could possibly have been avoided if your DH had been told "He has been bitten. It is not nursery policy to identify who did it but we are dealing with it in the following way."

Well I thought if it was the same child that bit DS before they'd have more of a reason to cover it up and ask him not to tell. I made a bit of a stink about it last time because this girl bit him three times in two weeks and the last one was a nasty bite.

But he told me it was a boy this time, and it seems it's a boy he doesn't know that well so it's feasible DS doesn't know his name and that's why he's not telling me. They had no problem telling DH he had been bitten, they weren't trying to cover that up. I feel better having confronted the manager and his carer and seeing their reactions and their body language. They seemed appalled at the thought that he might have been told to lie.

DS isn't in creche today so won't be around for a while.

Just another perspective but is it possible the child themselves asked your DS not to tell? At that age DS got hurt by a child who threatened to hurt him again if he told who it was. I had signed the incident form so knew there had been one.

It took a week for DS to tell me why he wouldn't tell me iyswim. This child was DS 'friend' but a stronger personality. I didn't worry as the boy is 3 weeks younger than DS meaning he stayed there when DS started school and he went to a different one anyway.

I know a lot of nurseries work on the forgive and forget ethos so it may be why your DS isn't to mention it - prevent the 'old news' syndrome occuring. EG when something occurs it doesn't always come back to 'well X bit me.....'

Your right about children biting - some do some don't, and DS CM actually gave notice to a parent who's DD was a habitual hurter when one day she bit him so hard to drew blood and bruised. Mindyou DS was less concerned than the CM.