To want to tell my ex like it is

[Mitmoo]

But I won't before I get started on. He took my son out today for the first time in over a month, they had only been out for thirty minutes before my son called me in tears asking me to pick him up from the back of beyond that Dad has already gone mental at him for doing nothing that was his fault, calling him a useless little shit son has self esteem issues, OCD and ASD and this crap just destroys him. Ex has form for this. Ex tried to apologise as he knew he was in the wrong but son was rightly having none of it and I picked him up to give him a good day out, so he wasn't left with someone who had been verbally abusive, apologised too late, and could have more positive memories from the day.

I'm sick of picking up the pieces but I love my son so will continue to do so.

AIBU?

Mitmoo- i posted on your other threads. Do you think that your DS has the true capacity to make the decision about keeping contact with his dad?

Its a tough one either way because i know that you are in the dilemma of not wanting your DS to become depressed, but perhaps try to keep no contact for a longer period, to see how your DS feels?

You can ignore the usual upset but then watch out for signs of depression, given his condition.

They got to the "back of beyond" in half an hour?

Do you live in the front of beyond?

Mitmoo. You wouldn't allow your DS to see a film that was wholly inappropriate, that would disturb and upset him, give him nightmares and traumatise him, would you?

No.

You would stand up and say NO. This situation is more serious, more damaging and more hurtful.

How about sitting your young man down and having a proper mum to man chat with him.

"On this occasion DS, I am making a judgement call, I have more insight, more experience and more understanding of the consequences than a lovely trusting and kind 14yo. In time you will see what I see, but you can't right now, so for now you will have to trust me.

going out with your father, having you end up in tears well within an hour, and needing to come back home, rightfully so, (and I am delighted that you did) means to me that as it currently is, seeing your dad is hurting you somehow.

Perhaps when you are a little older, you will feel strong enough to hold your own, but you are 14, and it's too much to ask of you right now.

We will work together, you and I and we will help you feel stronger and the confident young man you deserve to be. You will get there, because I believe in you, I will help you in every way I know how, all you have to do is be a little bit brave, and to trust me

When I see that you are strong enough and your Dad is able to treat you appropriately, and kindly, then we can arrange outings with him, but for now, you need to take a little break."

Defrocked you have misremembered what actually happened. His Dad booked two nights away, I was told too late that he was collecting him at 8 am causing him to lose a day off school, there was nothing I could do or I'd be the bad guy so I smiled through that one and informed the school. Then he refused to return him on the Sunday night as planned, refused to return him until Monday causing another lost school day, and left him without his medication, which he needs.

He also didn't call me to tell me but got my son to do it. He is lucky that I have been guided by my son's wishes and not my gut instinct.

Dad won't communicate with me or the school.

And to whoever asked if I was jealous of the relationship my son has with his father, no, I am concerned that his father is toxic and the damage this could do to my son.

Hurthissy thanks, he acrually did very well yesterday, when they arrived at the location, he refused to go with his Dad, called me to collect him. His Dad told him that I'd never be able to find where they were so calling me was a waste of time. I have no sense of direction at all but do have a SatNav. He waited for me to collect him, in the meantime his Dad called to say he was sorry if he had hurt his feelings and son told him it was too late and put the phone down on him.

I know he won't want to know him probably for a couple of weeks, then he'll softed after Dad has offered him some kind of expensive present bribe.

It sounds like your ex has difficulty being patient with him, reacts to whatever behaviour, then is immediately sorry but doesn't know how to recover the situation.

Is there any way that your ex can be subtly educated on how to deal more effectively with his son? Your ex wants to see your son, so shit or not, I doubt he wants every visit to end like this.

Birds It's a tough one because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. At 14 he should be making his own decisions but his Dad abuses it so often, that I really despair of knowing whether to interfere and putting a stop to it, not sure that I can at 14 or just supporting my son when he gets upset like this.

He is angry and questioning at the moment asking why I chose him to be his father, a damned fine question it is too!

Herhissy You make some excellent points again and it may well come to that, just right now I'm not sure what the right thing to do is. He hadn't even seen him for about three weeks maybe four (I'm not counting) and to get to this within the hour is madness.

Constance when my son was diagnosed with OCD and would behave erratically I offered for my ex to come to see the consultants, the cognitive behavioural therapists, which he refused. He has said in front of my son to me within his hearing "he's not normal" which got him a major roasting when I had son in bed asleep and called him. That was many years ago now but I'll never forget it.

When he was diagnosed autistic he asked "What more fkcing letters". I printed off loads of stuff from the net, got literature from CAMHS again offered for him to see the consultant either with or without me being there so that he could get a better understanding of his son's needs but he has refused everything.

So he can see that your son does have problems but refuses to deal with him any differently, - he's burying his head and just wants him to be 'normal'.

He needs to know what a lasting effect his reactions have on his son, but if communication between the two of you is difficult then it's near impossible to get through to him.

I am very close to someone in a similar situation to this, (just an attempt to qualify what i'm saying) and it is really coming across that it's your son who doesn't really want to see his Dad at the moment, or at least had reservations about this recent outing. He hasn't seen him for some time and when he does it all falls apart so quickly (someone upthread said he pushed buttons but i wouldn't put it that harshly). The teenager i know does just this because he wants someone to say "i'm not dealing with this, you can go home" and he can go 'phew, i didn't want to do this anyway'.

Maybe let your son know it's okay if he doesn't want to see his Dad right now, it won't mean he'll never see him, as he might be afraid this is what will happen and he might be feeling some guilt about hurting his Dad's feelings.

Constance the pushing button thing was inaccurate my son hadn't actually done anything wrong this time. Something happened that was exes fault but he lost it and blamed my son.

Ex has since apologised as he knows he was in the wrong but son doesn't want to know. It's a long pattern of behaviour hence son is hurt. I have told him he doesn't need to see him again until he wants to, he has told me he has put the phone down on Dad and I've said that is fine too, if he doesn't want to talk to him then he doesn't have to.

Son refusing to talk to his Dad might do more good (than me mouthing off) in teaching the Dad that his son has been hurt by his foul nasty mouth and bad temper.

Either way I am supporting son in not seeing or talking to his Dad until he is ready.

Well it sounds like you've got it sorted then.

*Constance) I'm not sure what to think is for the best, for now he doesn't want to see him or talk to his Dad and that is the right choice it will be when son softens as he always has in the past that I'll have to decide whether to wade in or not. You are right that his Dad is in denial.

hot in here...my daughter has the same issues when she visits her Dad and it's blown up horribly in the past, been discussed in court, police have almost been called, lawyers letters yada yada. My perspective is (the polite version!) that he has a lot of rage (directed at me, as a kind of symbol of everything that doesn't work in our situation, but taken out on the kids in my absence) and also doesn't see the children enough to understand how to communicate with them with ease any more. Think there are insecurities which then lead to that NR parent 'losing it': I agree, horrific. But (providing it isn't actually dangerous, physically...emotionally, I agree, is still bad but much harder to quantify) losing it sometimes is also human. It depends on the scale, of course, and it's important to try and keep things genuinely in perspective.

The kids, on the other hand, shouldn't have to deal with a parent's inadequacies and have their confidence undermined. Not to mention their perception of what a father is completely blasted to bits....that said, you can't just drop contact completely. It's probably against any court order you have anyway, right?

It's really difficult (maybe impossible by now) but if you really want to get anywhere and change anything I think you have to try and mediate with this ex rather than yell at him, try everything, try and get him to understand it isn't you and isn't PAS (no mother in her right mind would truly turn her child away from their father, right? I mean, he could be an impatient, intolerant so & so but he's still Dad and still can be loved, right?). He needs to get that the DS's reluctance to visit is down to his Dad's behaviour. Maybe try to help him work on his problem - or just get him to go and get help, anger management, slop blaming and take responsibility for the problem himself. It's too, too easy to blame the absent parent.

I also agree with those who've said it's probably better not to dash in and rescue him if the going gets tough, though when you're getting distress flares it's damn difficult. Maybe what you could do is get a third party - a nice friend or neighbour - to be on call for him if things get tough so that it isn't down to you to be the antidote to Dad all the time?

Good luck. I really know what this is like. I think my ex is mentally unstable yet I don't believe the children shouldn't have contact with him. I think it's better they know him for who he really is. But yes, it keeps me awake.

Mitmoo you seem to have an awful lot of drama in your life...

I think you know what to do

When DS has these times when he stays away from his Dad, does your ex ever approach you to ask when he's going to see him? Or does he just leave it until he contacts you/him?

I would say firstly, yes support DS in his wish not to see him, explain to him in the meantime that his Dad just doesn't seem to understand how to be with him, but that you will all try again when he is ready, - absolutely no pressure.

If ex asks for contact before DS is ready then explain calmly and plainly his feelings are hurt, he doesn't understand why you got upset with him, remember you do need to treat him carefully.

An then as and when contact is due to be back on, then explain again, go carefully you have a chance here to get it right. Make it clear that the 'chance' is being given not by you but by your son. ( it could be that your ex is thinking that you are trying to keep you son from him )

What defrocked and boney said. It sounds to me as though your loathing of your ex is affecting the relationship between your DS and his father. You might not mean it to, but you're not giving them any chance to work things through themselves; he's 14, not 4. I can understand why you hate him; he sounds like a tosser, but it really makes my heart sink when I see parents letting their loathing and anger of their ex seep through so that the children see it. It makes a toxic situation so much worse.

Really good advice from tsunami.

Tsunami Emotional abuse is often worse than the physical stuff, bruises heel a lot quicker than the mind does when the emotional abuse is sustained.

Ill give a little background. A number of months ago the ex told my son that his mother shouldn't be allowing him to have medication that he doesn't need to be taking stuff at his age. Son refused all meds after that.

Without the medication he can't cope with life and attempted suicide complete with leaving his father and me a suicide note. I had to get all of the agencies involved in supporting my son through this difficult time. All agreed he has to go back onto the meds and I was left trying to get through to son's Dad that this isn't a game where he can use anything to slag me off, this is real life and he is on the meds because a team of mental health experts have assessed him over several months and say that he needs them.

I can stop contact completely and it's not against the latest court order though that is pretty much defunked as it's years old. I will if I have to but right now I am trying to be led by my son's wishes. If it went back to court they would take into account the "ascertainable wishes of the child" anyway so court cases would be a waste of time.

My ex refuses to talk to me on any level, there is nothing I can do. In the past everything was tried but nothing worked. Anger management was suggested to him as were parenting classes by the court but he just refused.

There is no choice but to "rescue" son, he gets extremely distressed and has to know that there is a solution for every problem which is something he struggles with big time. I couldn't leave him there with a father who is out of control of his mouth, a son who is distressed and in tears. I can't ask friends or neighbours to jump in their cars to collect my son everytime his father has a paddy. My son is not their responsibility but he is mine.

I think when you have unstable, emotionally abusive exes or possibly both we do well to constantly review what is in the children's best interest and how it is affecting them. That's the hard bit when you've tried to promote contact but it is constantly being abused in one way or another and it is the child on the receiving end.

Good luck to you and your too, I so know what you mean about losing sleep over it.

constance No Dad won't approach me, what normally happens is Dad will wait for weeks to call son and hope that he's forgotten then talk as if nothing had happened. This time is different in that Ex has already tried to apologise.

Ex doesn't arrange any contact through me, he has even booked a weekend away deliberately given the child the wrong dates to give me then gets child to call me, to tell him to lie and that he told me all along the right dates all along, which is really evil IMO to put the child between Mum and Dad just to play games.

There will be no pressure put on my son at all to see his Dad against his wishes. That one you can be sure of . If ex does contact me which I doubt, I promise I'll try to keep calm while wanting to scream like a banshee at him for hurting my son again I doubt ex will talk to me re restablishing contact so as much as I'd love to have the "this is your son giving you another chance" chat, I don't think I'll have the opportunity sadly.

Figsandwine Sorry you've lost me. They went out for the day, father lost the plot, son refusing his calls, how is that my fault? Yes I went to collect him from the venue because he was refusing to talk to his father and with very good reason.

Father refuses to talk to me, so what could I do?

I am not going to force him to accept his father's apology as others have said he is 14 not 4.

If it were not for my son I wouldn't give the ex another thought, but when your child is constantly being hurt and upset by their father, what kind of a parent wouldn't be upset on their child's behalf. That doesn't mean I tell my son what a wanker his father is because I don't. Dad does a first class job of showing him that without any help from me sadly.

mitmoo have you ever wondered why you have so much drama in your life?

One of the main reasons is that I married an man incapable of being a decent father but I got wise and divorced him and will be forever glad that I did both, to have got such a wonderful child from the experience. Thank you for asking

I'm with you Mitmoo, and I know all about the seriousness of emotional damage. It's so hard to prove, is one of the biggest problems, because getting the children to testify would be traumatic for them, too.
And you've made a bit clearer the picture about the seriousness of the situation (pills, suicide etc).

Whatever your part in it may be, it sounds to me like arrested development - as though your ex doesn't have the maturity to leave his ego out of the picture. That's familiar to me. Some know how to put their kids first, and I guess some don't. I DON'T say all dads are less caring than all mums, or even most - I just think in most mums I get the impression it's more generally hardwired (though maybe some of us can also do the wrong things trying to protect their kids). My ex is vengeful and uses the kids as pawns to get at ('punish') me: it's not my imagination - it really is that simple. We've had the kids dragged through the courts by him, me badmouthed, even to my employers (who are nothing to do with him), the kids bribed, lied to, locked up, threatened, aggressed etc etc., him hurting them, hitting himself in the face, him throwing the kids' belongings in the garbage and the whole lot of it simply denied in court, to friends and family and to social workers: he has shown no remorse, no let-up, no genuine empathy at any time. Only sharky fake stuff on paper for the courts to try and project me in a bad light. I think he's bonkers, he won't get help and it's exhausting.

What does one do? I still think don't yell at him because it'll be wasted. My self-imposed rules are: definitely keep the boundaries firm. Try to keep the boat on an even keel. Talk to people who can support you, maybe. Support the children all you can, and keep the moral high ground - never descend to the level the abuser has.
And if the abuse continues surely a solicitor could help you get restricted/supervised contact?

Tsunami As it stands I could refuse all contact and he'd have to take me to court, go through CRAPCASS CAFCASS and in the end CAFCASS will do what ever the child wants anyway. At 14 it's a total waste of time in the courts. If the child says "Yes I want Dad to take me here, there or anywhere" they'll order it. Similarly is child says "Had enough now, don't want to see him" there isn't a court in the land that could force that contact to happen at 14 if the child refused.

The court orders make the RP have the child available at certain times but they dont say that the child has to be forced, so if a child refuses to get out of a car for example for contact, the RP cannot be done for breaching the order.

He just can't put his son first, finds it a game to criticise me to the child which only hurts him. Then he thinks he's very clever for getting at me. It's awful it's parenting for neanderthols, but he won't listen, won't be told and he will end up losing his son. In his mind it will be everyone elses fault I'm sure, not accepting that he's blown every chance. I don't think we are there yet but I can well see it coming.

Son is fine today

What pippi said