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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is it unreasonable to lie?

51 replies

Wossisface · 28/08/2011 20:27

About your dc location to get a better school? Not asking for me but in general. I would love to know your opinions as the subject came up today amongst family.

OP posts:
bubblesincoffee · 28/08/2011 21:12

they either have it or they don't and will flourish wherever they go if they are intelligent enough.

And what if your child isn't that intelligent and won't flourish wherever they go? What if they are only likely to flourish in the oversubscribed school with excellent provision for lower academic achievers on the other side of town? Does that child not deserve their parent to do whatever they can to get them the best education possible within such a flawed system?

ilovesooty · 28/08/2011 21:15

Would those of you who think it's ok to lie instruct your child to go to school every day and lie about where they live? Would you tell them why?

DogsBestFriend · 28/08/2011 21:16

"A child killed himself because of the bullying.... Is it wrong? yes it is. Would I do it? You bet your arse I would!"

Heartbreaking. :( My heart and soul ache for that child and his or her poor family.

My younger child is due to start in a new state mainstream school in September having just left a school specially for children who are so severely bullied that they are in need of intensive, holistic rehabilitation before they can return to mainstream. It was with this particularly in mind that I agreed with you, niceguy. To put her into some schools would be to break her completely... and could see the death of her. I haven't had to lie but if I really needed to, well, there's the reason why I would.

bubblesincoffee · 28/08/2011 21:19

Maryz, it is wrong, but what is more wrong is that this is the only choice some parents feel they have.

It is not stealing another child's place because the whole allocations process is no more than a lottery. A child that lives on the right side of the road does not have more right to a place than a child who lives on the wrong side of the road. No child (except SEN) is more entitled to a school place than any other child.

What gives you the right to say "my child deserves a better education than X's child".

Turn this round. What gives you the right to say that X's child deserves a better education than mine?

DogsBestFriend · 28/08/2011 21:21

ilovesooty, lying in order to get a child into a particular school does not necessarily mean that a parent is not telling the truth about their address. Parents have, and whilst the system remains as it is will continue to be untruthful in many ways to do their best with regard to their DCs education.

But if I had to lie about my address and tell my child to do so and why, then I guess I would have to. Depends on the situation I suppose though, it's a hard one to answer without being given a specific scenario.

ilovesooty · 28/08/2011 21:21

So you instruct your child to lie day in, day out as well?

ilovesooty · 28/08/2011 21:23

Sorry, x post. If your child knows that your address is really X yet s/he has to pretend it's Y I don't see how you then bring up your child to tell the truth.

smallmotherbigheart · 28/08/2011 21:24

Well to be honest I don't want to jump and instantly say you are totally wrong. I understand the need to give your child the best start in life, regardless of what anyone else thinks it means. My friends and I often debate about schools and or private education and so on, and what it all it comes down to is we all want different things for our kids and thats ok.

I don't actually think it's about the child 'having it or not', unless 'it' is the actual opportunity for his/ her talent(s) to be recognised. However you have to realise that no matter what school they attend, you are the main contributor to their success. You/ close family should take part in their education and make sure they have the opportunity to flourish. It's true, every child is different and a good school won't necessarily bring out the best in your child. I believe that it starts at home.

I teach my ds at home, and I can honestly say that if I hadn't done that he would be struggling, yet he attends a private pre school which is supposed to have a strong focus on educating the children. Nothing to do with his abilities, as a lot of other parents have commented on their kids lack of progress. I laugh when I attend the parents evening and they sit there and tell me what my son has learned- I already know because I TAUGHT HIM!!

niceguy2 · 28/08/2011 21:27

Once the child has started school then the address ceases to matter because it's usually deemed not in the child's best interests to disrupt them and withdraw the place.

So it's easy to pretend you've moved once your child is in. There's little a school can do to prove you've lied after the fact. I guess that's why council's were using RIPA to catch parents out before they got their spot allocated but I can see why people were uncomfortable using laws designed to catch terrorists to spy on parents.

Andrewofgg · 28/08/2011 21:30

And some heads don't want to know. They think parents who would do that are the sort of education-friendly parents they want.

ilovesooty · 28/08/2011 21:30

*Once the child has started school then the address ceases to matter because it's usually deemed not in the child's best interests to disrupt them and withdraw the place.

So it's easy to pretend you've moved once your child is in. There's little a school can do to prove you've lied after the fact*

So lying pays off and those children get spaces which should have gone to someone else.

I can only suggest that the penalties for lying should be reviewed to reduce the incentive to do so.

Sidalee7 · 28/08/2011 21:32

yes its wrong, and if you get found out your child can get asked to leave imediately.

I know of someone this happended to.

FabbyChic · 28/08/2011 21:35

Ofsted results are manipulated by schools, they know when the inspectors are coming in and tutor the students to behave in a certain way.

Maryz · 28/08/2011 22:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DogsBestFriend · 28/08/2011 22:16

"I was asked to take my son out of school on the day of the inspection."

I was going to say I'm shocked, but I realise that I'm far from surprised and that you're far from the first parent to receive such a request Maryz.

I know teachers who have said the same. I want to ask why you were asked to do so but know that's rude and unacceptable so may I ask instead of the logic behind it, ie why the school thought it was a good idea?

DogsBestFriend · 28/08/2011 22:16

PS Maryz, no offence taken of course if you want to tell me to pee off and mind my own!

Maryz · 28/08/2011 22:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DogsBestFriend · 28/08/2011 22:32
Shock

Your son was right! What a bitch!

Poor lad and poor you. Disgraceful, shameful behaviour on the part of the school. Angry

CardyMow · 28/08/2011 23:52

Might be shameful on the part of the school, but happens all the time here. On Ofsted day in 2006, My DD (asd, SN) was excluded for one day (which wasn't on her records when she left Hmm ) for not handing her homework in. Which she was unable to complete as it hadn't been differentiated for her. On purpose. To give them an 'excuse'.

Last years' Ofsted - my DS1's stepbrother was excluded for 24 hrs - he has since been dxd ADHD. My friends' DS was excluded - he has Aspergers and ADD. They couldn't find a reason to exclude MY DS2 (also asd) ... so they asked me if he could be 'ill' that day. Angry. I said NO. He was there that day, they RANG ME and told me he felt ill. I asked to speak to him on the phone before I came to collect him, they huffed and puffed, but I insisted I was not goin g to pick him up without talking to him on the phone - he told me he FELT fine, but the HT had said he LOOKED ill. Hmm Angry Sad That they LIED to my DS2 like that!!

Wrote to Ofsted - but you have to personally hand letters for the inspectore to the school office. When I read the report - my letter hadn't been passed on. Even though it was in the 'official' envelope, and I got a friend to give it to the office.

This sort of thing is RIFE in schools.

Original poster
Wossisface · 28/08/2011 23:59

This is the situation that got us talking my mums friend's granddaughter, is going to school sept 2012 she has to apply this sept.

She lives in a bad area and does not have funds to move as in negative equity etc. The local school often has children as young as 8 or 9 smoking around it swearing etc. It will be my mums friend taking her gd to school every day as the mum works. Mums friend lives in a nice area and she is going to put on the application that her daughter lives with her mum (the grandmother) during the week due to work commitments which is not true but it is true that she will be there early in the morning every school day. (I do hope they don't mn!!)

I thought this was wrong but then after debating it I started to think similar to my mum that well...yes I would do anything for my dd. I could see her point. But as others have said it by no means makes it right.

Very interesting reading everyones replies. Still not sure what I would do. But it made for a interesting discussion that's for sure.

OP posts:
DogsBestFriend · 29/08/2011 00:02

I'd be passing on all copies of correspondance to the Government Ombudsman, Loudlass, and let them deal with it.

Original poster
Wossisface · 29/08/2011 00:02

I meant to write as well. I am totally shocked that schools ask children to not come in during inspections!!! That's just so wrong Angry . I cannot imagine how that must make you feel as a parent!!

OP posts:
FreudianSlipper · 29/08/2011 00:08

yes it is wrong

and it is very wrong that in some areas flats are rented out empty just so children can get into a certain school, it makes a mockery of fair education for all

we are moving and one of the reasons is to get ds into a good school, the school i really want to get him into has such a small catchment areas that the few roads around it the rents are extortionate but some of the properties are empty yet these children will have a better chance of getting into the school that how unfair is that

AuntiePickleBottom · 29/08/2011 00:29

I would never lie.

You are putting your DC life at risk..... Imagine they had a serious accident, it would be hard to find medical records ect

CogitoErgoSometimes · 29/08/2011 10:44

In the case of 'mum's friend's granddaughter' I think lying is probably the worst option because it would be found out quite quickly. I'd be onto the nearest school asking what their plans are to clean up the smoking and swearing 8 year-olds etc. If the answers aren't satisfactory, complain to the LEA - then make the application choosing the better school first choice, backed up with letters explaining why the choice is being made, including the grandmother's address as a fall-back.

FWIW a friend sent her son to the local 'failing school' 9 years ago despite having fought tooth and nail to get him out of it. A new headteacher and 7 years later, the son got straight A A-levels and the place is oversubscribed. She's glad she lost her case.